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Salvaging Damaged Pellets
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kruzaroad View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 6:10am
Personally I think a pin locked
through the mag, made of steel,with steel inserts (plastic wear to fast) in the mag,alined to the actual gun (not generic) pulled out by the bolt action, sprung loaded and released by a sear type action as soon as it pulls out of the hole so it pushes onto the mag and locates the next hole as it spins or even just as the final alining device.
Couple of sprung ball bearings on stock end of mag or on rifle where mag inserts to keep pressure on mag holding it hard against barrel eliminating any gap. Smooth lead in to the very beginning of barrel with a tapered rifling leading up to where the pellet sits (theory being smooth part starts to shape any irregular pellet, tapered rifling allows the pellet to gentally cut rifling in to pellet before it sits in place) and a custom hollow probe made to pellet dimensions would do the trick.
I can see the design in me head but it won't get built by me.
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kruzaroad View Drop Down
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Posts: 2691 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kruzaroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 5:24am
Fun day though? Sweet your pistol took out tops.
That's the thing about target shooting i guess, it's all down too the day.
It's the really only the best shooter of the day, not always the best shooter.
I find that when in field I'm way more accurate than targets, don't waste so much time trying to get that perfect shot and let reflex take over. Seems to be more accurate than trying to make the perfect shot on a target once you've learnt your gun.
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KiwiTR6 View Drop Down
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Not great, I made a bad choice with the silhouettes which was my undoing.

My custom pistol won though!  In the hands of a new member who made the same silhouette selection as me but was actually able to hit most of them Clap

The probe design may well play a part, but one of our club members recently noted that he thought he'd shaved a pellet loading from his factory FX mag and produced a flyer again reinforcing my theory.


Edited by KiwiTR6 - 03 Dec 2024 at 5:11am
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kruzaroad View Drop Down
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How the shooting comp go?
From that I'd say the heads are way more of an issue.
So next thing would be the feeding the pellet in. Looking at some of the probes I've seen, none are ever shaped to pellet dimensions, so I'm assuming that there is play which could push the head harder to one side at times causes a flat spot. I've found hollow probe really good for loading and I wonder if it's because it engages the skirt only and creates a more balanced and even pressure feed.
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KiwiTR6 View Drop Down
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As promised I've done some quick testing to prove/disprove my theory re possible magazine initial alignment damage to the first pellet fired.  Not big numbers tested, but enough to show that I may be on the right track.

Brocock Grand Prix standing/rested
Single pellet feed
JSB 0.22 Exact Jumbo Express 14.35gr pellets
10m indoor range
5 pellets in each target

One of the images shows the three types of damaged pellets used, slightly deformed skirt, badly deformed skirt and good skirt/damaged head (lead removed with a file).

The pistol is super accurate as you can see, but I only get around 15-16 shots so I re-aired after 10 shots.  It's pretty clear that the slightly deformed skirts don't cause much deviation, but the badly deformed skirts (which shooters are unlikely to use anyway) definitely affect accuracy as do pellets with damaged heads.  It's the latter I suspect can occur without being obvious to the shooter.

I probably should have done more tests but I feel the obvious difference is enough to confirm my thinking at this stage.












Edited by KiwiTR6 - 03 Dec 2024 at 3:06am
Daystate Red Wolf .22
FX Dreamline .22
Diana Outlaw .22
AA S410 .22
HW98 .177
HW30 .177
Diana 340 E-Tec .177
FWB Sport 124 .177
Gamo 900 .22
Baikal IJ-22 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Brocock GP .22
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JasonEdward View Drop Down
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Maybe as a first move I'll take the mag O ring off and make sure it's well siliconed on the inside ... 
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JasonEdward View Drop Down
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Cheers Pauly, yes using silicon spray on the mag/Orings.

Makes sense, yeah mag is a passive feed one. 

Refer my post re pellet loading issue after pellet change... 
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Pauly5 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by JasonEdward JasonEdward wrote:

Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)

However, your Cyclone doesn't use a spring tensioned mag. I think it is usually the spring tensioned mags that damage pellets as they cycle. Yours is indexed by a lever and I can't remember but likely locates its position using a ball bearing indent, so you shouldn't get damage that way. I do remember that it is a good idea to give your cyclone mags a light coat of silicone so that the pellet slides nicely over the O ring in the mag.
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KiwiTR6 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by JasonEdward JasonEdward wrote:

Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)


Yes, that's my theory and explains why for target shooting (as opposed to hunting) many use a single shot feed from a tray which is what I'm now doing with all of my target guns.

I recently noticed when target shooting that when I and fellow competitors changed to a new mag the first shot would inevitably be a flyer.  Most of my magazines are CARM 3D printed items (beautifully made), but like most 3D printed mags takes a little bit of 'fiddling' to get into place and I believe that the first shot finalises the alignment but in the process potentially scores the side of that first pellet.  In an extreme case where the mag isn't correctly manufactured then it's possible that every pellet will be marked which will obviously affect it's performance.  Just like a misaligned suppressor that clips pellets it's not obvious unless you have experienced it before.

This is not really an issue for hunting, but definitely for target shooting (in my humble opinion).  Also, as Kruza mentions, if the return spring for the pellet drum is too tight then the pellet can be damaged as the probe is withdrawn and the next pellet is slammed into place.  On the other hand, if the spring is too weak, there is a risk that the drum won't rotate to the next pellet.

I imagine a similar problem can occur with a mechanically rotated drum.  If the drum doesn't rotate precisely then damage can occur which I now suspect was the problem with my Hunting Master AR6 rifle.




Edited by KiwiTR6 - 24 Nov 2024 at 8:40am
Daystate Red Wolf .22
FX Dreamline .22
Diana Outlaw .22
AA S410 .22
HW98 .177
HW30 .177
Diana 340 E-Tec .177
FWB Sport 124 .177
Gamo 900 .22
Baikal IJ-22 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Brocock GP .22
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JasonEdward View Drop Down
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JasonEdward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 6:42am
Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)
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kruzaroad View Drop Down
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Am I right in assuming that the first round in a mag is the one that locks the mag to loaded and takes the full weight of the spring that turns the mag or is that the last pellet fired?
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Pauly5 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1676 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pauly5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 3:28am
Yea, a good thread.

That first shot from a mag is defnitely the one to watch too.
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JasonEdward View Drop Down
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Great thread with some rare data re damaged pellets.

Best of luck with the shooting comp and I'll look forward to more testing of damaged pellets re POI... 

thank you for your efforts!
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KiwiTR6 View Drop Down
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Thanks Kruza, it'll be a lot of fun regardless of the results Thumbs Up

I might grab that off you Mark, it's not much good for anything else so I wouldn't feel bad about taking a welder to it....
Daystate Red Wolf .22
FX Dreamline .22
Diana Outlaw .22
AA S410 .22
HW98 .177
HW30 .177
Diana 340 E-Tec .177
FWB Sport 124 .177
Gamo 900 .22
Baikal IJ-22 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Brocock GP .22
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kruzaroad View Drop Down
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Posts: 2691 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kruzaroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 2:38pm
Best of shooting to you for the pistol comp.
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