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Salvaging Damaged Pellets

Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Pauly's Technical Area
Forum Description: Technical information, Modifications and DIY projects are all in here
URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=1130
Printed Date: 03 Jul 2025 at 4:04am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.14 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Salvaging Damaged Pellets
Posted By: KiwiTR6
Subject: Salvaging Damaged Pellets
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 8:42am
Our local club regularly shoots with pistols indoors at 10, 12 and 15 yards and I've found that the 13.43gr JSB Exacts work best in my guns.  However, they're not currently available from retailers here so I recently imported several tins of 500 from Krale in the Netherlands.

Whilst the packaging was OK, about 90% of the pellets suffered skirt damage to varying degrees whereas some heavier pellets I'd also ordered were undamaged.  My assumption is that the very thin skirts of these lightweight pellets were damaged by movement inside the tins during transit and this may be the reason that no one is retailing them now.

Not to be discouraged, I came up with a plan to make them usable.  My setup is pretty crude, but it works very well so I thought I'd pass it on. 

Originally I was going to machine up a die on my lathe but being the lazy bugger that I am I opted to form one inside a good pellet using JB Weld.  I lightly smeared the inside of the selected pellet with silicon grease, mixed up the JB Weld and holding the pellet in a mini vice with rubber jaws, packed the epoxy in with a short piece of 1/16" welding wire placed in the centre.  When it was set, I remove the pellet and installed the wire into a short piece of dowel.

For the outer former I had also planned to make something on the lathe, but having some Crosman spares lying around I decided to try the breach feed end of a 2240 barrel.  With the barrel held vertically in the vice and a 4mm carbon fibre rod inside it sitting on blocks of wood on the floor to act as an adjustable stop, I was able to rapidly process several pellets with excellent results.  The pointed tip quickly broke off the die, but I realised it wasn't needed so roughly cleaned up the broken face with a file.  Silicon grease was applied to the inner die every 20-30 pellets to minimize wear.

The use of the carbon rod was a lucky choice as it ended up acting as a spring holding the pellets a little high when inserted but flexing and allowing the pellets to seat as pressure was applied to the die.  It also allowed me to easily lift the pellets out when finished.  At around 10 pellets per minute, a full tin took me about an hour to process.

The recovery rate was about 95% with the majority suitable for competition, maybe around 30 not to that standard(which will be used for chrony testing) and 10 or so not worth mucking around with.

Just 3 more tins to go Ermm












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FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22



Replies:
Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 9:28am
nice work


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: J-S
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 9:45am
Cant be wasting too many pellets in this economy, nice one. 

While you have a bunch of bad ones, id be keen to see if the rumours are true that JSB thin skirts and soft lead will blow out into the rifling - minor skirt damage may be blown out into the rifling to engage well and shoot accurate..

shoot a bunch of damaged ones then good ones and check grouping...


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https://www.instagram.com/js_airguns/" rel="nofollow - J S Airguns
Air Arms TX200('s)
Theoben Sirocco
HW77
FWB 300s
Webley Patriot
One or two others...

Current projects:
Too many..


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 10:01am
A great idea!

From my very limited experience...

I thought, up until recently, variance in pellet weight was the cause of my 'flyers'.  I'm no longer of that opinion.

I've noticed that the first shot from a fresh magazine (after changing mags mid shoot) is almost always astray, which indicates to me that the skirt is damaged when the first pellet is pushed home by the probe as it also precisely aligns the mag.  For this reason I have now resorted to single shot loading of all of my target guns.

So, I am skeptical that out of round skirts get blown true and come right but the way to find out is to test as you suggest.  I'll need to replace the red dot with a scope to confirm or otherwise but should hopefully have a definitive answer for you within the next day or so.


-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 10:38am
I'd be keen to see if there's a difference in depth of rifling marks in the head of the pellet.
Could be that in that millisecond that it takes the damaged part of the skirt to flare, that the undamaged part of the skirt has started to lift the head on the damaged side into the rifling, which then corrects as the pressure equalises going down the barrel.
Or the other way around, the air passing the gap and expanding pushes the head down in to the rifling.
Just a thought mind, have no real data or evidence to back this train of thought up.


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 2:32pm
OK, some preliminary test results at 10m using my Dreamline set to low power to save me swapping pistol scopes at this stage.  I normally shoot 18.13gr JSBs with this rifle so it may not be quite so receptive to the 13.43gr pellets tested.

Far from definitive, but generally as I would have expected.  Ten rough pellets and ten good ones, five into each target.  I will try again using a pistol and report back in due course.

Damaged skirts shown below.








-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 2:35pm
What distance ?
Nice grouping


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 3:24pm
Just 10m in my shed.  The pistol will be a more realistic test when I get to it.  We have a red dot pistol trophy shoot this weekend so I'd rather not swap it out until that is over.


-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: mercs
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 3:35pm
Before and after is quite extraordinary.
Crosman barrel = so useful universal tool.
I have a 6 inch scrap cut-off if wanting to make a permanent setup.
Nicely done.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 3:38pm
Best of shooting to you for the pistol comp.



Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2024 at 4:06pm
Thanks Kruza, it'll be a lot of fun regardless of the results Thumbs Up

I might grab that off you Mark, it's not much good for anything else so I wouldn't feel bad about taking a welder to it....



-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2024 at 7:05am
Great thread with some rare data re damaged pellets.

Best of luck with the shooting comp and I'll look forward to more testing of damaged pellets re POI... 

thank you for your efforts!


Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 4:28am
Yea, a good thread.

That first shot from a mag is defnitely the one to watch too.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 4:38am
Am I right in assuming that the first round in a mag is the one that locks the mag to loaded and takes the full weight of the spring that turns the mag or is that the last pellet fired?


Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 7:42am
Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 9:38am
Originally posted by JasonEdward JasonEdward wrote:

Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)


Yes, that's my theory and explains why for target shooting (as opposed to hunting) many use a single shot feed from a tray which is what I'm now doing with all of my target guns.

I recently noticed when target shooting that when I and fellow competitors changed to a new mag the first shot would inevitably be a flyer.  Most of my magazines are CARM 3D printed items (beautifully made), but like most 3D printed mags takes a little bit of 'fiddling' to get into place and I believe that the first shot finalises the alignment but in the process potentially scores the side of that first pellet.  In an extreme case where the mag isn't correctly manufactured then it's possible that every pellet will be marked which will obviously affect it's performance.  Just like a misaligned suppressor that clips pellets it's not obvious unless you have experienced it before.

This is not really an issue for hunting, but definitely for target shooting (in my humble opinion).  Also, as Kruza mentions, if the return spring for the pellet drum is too tight then the pellet can be damaged as the probe is withdrawn and the next pellet is slammed into place.  On the other hand, if the spring is too weak, there is a risk that the drum won't rotate to the next pellet.

I imagine a similar problem can occur with a mechanically rotated drum.  If the drum doesn't rotate precisely then damage can occur which I now suspect was the problem with my Hunting Master AR6 rifle.




-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2024 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by JasonEdward JasonEdward wrote:

Interesting - so can I just clarify that I haven't misunderstood:

Is it that when I fit a magazine into my PCP, press the pin forward to center the rotating mag on it's spindle, this does not actually properly line up the mag so the pellets will slip directly forward into the breech? And that alignment only happens as the first pellet is pushed into the breech and the alignment is done by the actual pellet as it goes into the breech from a non-aligned position?

So the first pellet can be subject to deforming as it enters the breech while it is also moving the magazine into proper alignment?  

And most (or all?) magazine fed air rifles are designed this way? Which is why serious target shooters want feed in single pellets not use magazines?

Thanks for educating me Thumbs Up :-)

However, your Cyclone doesn't use a spring tensioned mag. I think it is usually the spring tensioned mags that damage pellets as they cycle. Yours is indexed by a lever and I can't remember but likely locates its position using a ball bearing indent, so you shouldn't get damage that way. I do remember that it is a good idea to give your cyclone mags a light coat of silicone so that the pellet slides nicely over the O ring in the mag.


Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2024 at 6:01am
Cheers Pauly, yes using silicon spray on the mag/Orings.

Makes sense, yeah mag is a passive feed one. 

Refer my post re pellet loading issue after pellet change... 


Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2024 at 6:03am
Maybe as a first move I'll take the mag O ring off and make sure it's well siliconed on the inside ... 


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 4:05am
As promised I've done some quick testing to prove/disprove my theory re possible magazine initial alignment damage to the first pellet fired.  Not big numbers tested, but enough to show that I may be on the right track.

Brocock Grand Prix standing/rested
Single pellet feed
JSB 0.22 Exact Jumbo Express 14.35gr pellets
10m indoor range
5 pellets in each target

One of the images shows the three types of damaged pellets used, slightly deformed skirt, badly deformed skirt and good skirt/damaged head (lead removed with a file).

The pistol is super accurate as you can see, but I only get around 15-16 shots so I re-aired after 10 shots.  It's pretty clear that the slightly deformed skirts don't cause much deviation, but the badly deformed skirts (which shooters are unlikely to use anyway) definitely affect accuracy as do pellets with damaged heads.  It's the latter I suspect can occur without being obvious to the shooter.

I probably should have done more tests but I feel the obvious difference is enough to confirm my thinking at this stage.












-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 4:46am
How the shooting comp go?
From that I'd say the heads are way more of an issue.
So next thing would be the feeding the pellet in. Looking at some of the probes I've seen, none are ever shaped to pellet dimensions, so I'm assuming that there is play which could push the head harder to one side at times causes a flat spot. I've found hollow probe really good for loading and I wonder if it's because it engages the skirt only and creates a more balanced and even pressure feed.


Posted By: KiwiTR6
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 6:08am
Not great, I made a bad choice with the silhouettes which was my undoing.

My custom pistol won though!  In the hands of a new member who made the same silhouette selection as me but was actually able to hit most of them Clap

The probe design may well play a part, but one of our club members recently noted that he thought he'd shaved a pellet loading from his factory FX mag and produced a flyer again reinforcing my theory.


-------------
FX King 600 .22
FX Dreamline Classic .22
Diana Outlaw .22
Air Arms S410 .22
Cometa Fenix 400 .177
Weihrauch HW50 .177
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
Crosman 2250 Custom .22
Brocock Grand Prix .22


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 6:24am
Fun day though? Sweet your pistol took out tops.
That's the thing about target shooting i guess, it's all down too the day.
It's the really only the best shooter of the day, not always the best shooter.
I find that when in field I'm way more accurate than targets, don't waste so much time trying to get that perfect shot and let reflex take over. Seems to be more accurate than trying to make the perfect shot on a target once you've learnt your gun.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2024 at 7:10am
Personally I think a pin locked
through the mag, made of steel,with steel inserts (plastic wear to fast) in the mag,alined to the actual gun (not generic) pulled out by the bolt action, sprung loaded and released by a sear type action as soon as it pulls out of the hole so it pushes onto the mag and locates the next hole as it spins or even just as the final alining device.
Couple of sprung ball bearings on stock end of mag or on rifle where mag inserts to keep pressure on mag holding it hard against barrel eliminating any gap. Smooth lead in to the very beginning of barrel with a tapered rifling leading up to where the pellet sits (theory being smooth part starts to shape any irregular pellet, tapered rifling allows the pellet to gentally cut rifling in to pellet before it sits in place) and a custom hollow probe made to pellet dimensions would do the trick.
I can see the design in me head but it won't get built by me.



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