Pellet testing
Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Reviews
Forum Description: Rate your airgun or pellets here
URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=951
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2024 at 11:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.14 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pellet testing
Posted By: kruzaroad
Subject: Pellet testing
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2023 at 3:38pm
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Ran through 3 types pellets at lower volicity. Set up: gun 1322. 10 pumps. 10m. Target: 4 layers of gel shoe insole, wrapped in masking tape. Pellets. 2 each shot into gel. Left: h&n field target trophy Middle: gamo red fire. (shot 2, don't know where second went.) Right jsb hades.  Pellets in pic retrieve from gel. None penetrated all 4 layers. Missing gamo redfire also never made it through tape at back. Data: Field target trophy : 14.66gr 466fps 7.07ft.lb (9.59 joules) One had turned 180° in gel Gamo redfire : 15.42gr 451fps 6.97ft.lb (9.45 joules) Jsb hades : 14.66gr 451fps 7.16ft.lb ( 9.71 joules) I'll add more as I do them over time. Anyone else who wants to add please do. |
Replies:
Posted By: Declan
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 8:52am
| Great report. I really like your idea of using gel shoe inserts for ballistic gel. Good one! |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 9:19am
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That was inspired geniuses with the gel, created by the fact after cutting it up for lining the aircheif stock, I relised I hadn't taken the cocking arm into account and it wouldn't fit as I thought. So about then the gel shoe liner target came into existence. I seriously didn't think it would work that well. As you get 2 in box might have to make a thicker one to try with rifle. Appwntly the stuff you can get to make those soft body fishing lures is great. Haven't been able to find any in nz yet. Can be got from USA.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 4:48pm
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sig asp 20. .177 Distance 20m / 21.87yards.
Air arms deablo field heavy: 10.3 gr /. 670grm Velocity :899fps / 274mps Muzzle energy: 18.49 ft.lb/ 25.07 joules Retained volicity @ target: 887.30fps / 270.45mps Energy at target: 18.01 ft.lb / 24.42 joules 4 layers gel innersoles taped to 2 litre bottle of water.  So three shots were fired. First 2 through the gel and into the milk bottle. Both passed strait through everything. Third shot was through milk bottle and into the gel. It caught between the first and second layer, with its skirt in first and head in second layer. The skirt was deformed, everything else was great. By then milk bottle was draining out and left it at that. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 8:25pm
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same set up as above. Made another 4 layer gel pad taped one either side of milk bottle full of water,10m, passed strait through. Made a 8 layer gel target. 124 grams, 50.40mm thick. 37m just sitting on a fence post, was still passing strait through.. Gel was bouncing a foot back but not with any force. So got a chicken thigh bone taped it horizontal in center of gel block, thinking it would deflect up or down. Target: 15m / 16.4yards Velocity at target: 890. 27fps / 271.35 m/s Energy at target: 18.13ft.lb / 24.58j Pellet stopped 6 layers in  |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2023 at 1:18pm
did 80m with a chicken breast bone taped to gel . Which in turn was taped to 11mm thick pine skirting length. Blew thew skirting.  2 shots passed strait threw, where the layers weren't full near the edges. Anything labeled B is the pellet that hit bone . Others caught in gel only.  The other 4 of the gel pads were facing gel towards shooter.  These pellets in my view are simply a hole punch. I've not seen any expansion results that impress me. Doesn't impart any energy dumping in soft bone or tissue. I still find it a good pellet in this gun. But would seem a bit harder mix of metal than I thought. Got a tin of exact, wonder if they are softer.  |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 10:20pm
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I do t think the exact will be any softer then the AA. I know JSB claim they use separate and different dies for the AA pellets, so they MIGHT be ever so slightly different head or skirt size, but I don’t believe JSB melt up different batches lead with different ratios of tin and Antiminny for different customers. I recon they use a standard recipe, melted in huge caldrons and make hundereds of tons of lead wire which is used for any and all pellets they produce. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 7:05am
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or as they change dies for runs of differnt pellets brands , they just adjust the metal mixtures for the lead wire for that run. I cant see some one like fx or air arms developing a pellet/slug to expand or deform a certain way, then going to jbs who say, yep not a problem but you can't have that deformation as you have to use our mix of lead, even though we can mix it to your specs as we produce our lead wire. |
Posted By: Declan
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 9:38am
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You’re doing great work testing pellets. Keep it up. Pellets and airguns are strange bedfellows. I’ve seen airguns that like one particular brand but when the batch changes they hate them. A good example is my FWB Sport. It absolutely hated JSB then this year I got a batch manufactured in 2022 and it just loves them. My HW97 loved JSB dated 2018 but with the 2022 batch I couldn’t hit a barn door at 10 paces. I know guys who swear by AA. More likely it’s just a particular batch their gun likes rather than the brand. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 9:32am
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well I had written a blurb with facts and figures, but got lost between changing screens. So f it cant be bothered rewriting. Basic out line. I think air rifles will like a type of pellet by a supplier more than others. Probly others of that weight and style. But my guns have a definite prefrance. (hence where facts and figures were) I'll keep testing slowly. Would really like to see other ppl doing it as well. I'm not going to cover a lot, more the better data set we have. CHICKEN BONES ARNT HARD TO GET! You'll find them at the end of every roast chicken dinner. Don't have gel? Try a couple of milk bottles filled with water tapped together. But really I could do the help, and I'd like to see other results from differnt pellets at differnt fpe. Have been toying with idea of hollowing out a alloy and replacing with lead. I have a sneaking suspicion that the lead will turn into a shower of fragments as it punches through the alloy on contact with the target. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2023 at 11:06pm
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https://youtu.be/Ibc6STL52wo?si=CQW51nb4ecqZSRvh Using plumbers putty for pellet trap. Good trap too. Could suit those into testing for expansion. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2024 at 1:30pm
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Jsb/cometa exact heavy 10.34gr 20m Sig .177 Muzzle energy and stuff on AA test. Same weight pellet. Stuff on pellet head bone it carried into gel. Stopped 6 layers in. Two shots fired, one just nicked bone and passed all way through gel.2nd hit square on and shattered it. Chicken thigh bone. Try 80m when wind and heat have died down. 
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2024 at 3:16pm
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Had a crack at 80m but wind is just too temperamental. Had a thigh bone on top of breast bone, pellets kept hitting to side of thigh bone try again later if wind dies down. Jsb/cometa exact heavy 10.34gr 80m. Sig. 177 data per AA test. Bone it went through is really thin like two playing cards thick. Deformation not worth mentioning. 2 pellets caught in 4th layer one in 5th. 20m for comparison. The grooves are filling out nicely with the skirt and the lands are just marking the heads so that's all good. 
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 12:06am
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Testing is always very interesting. I recon we could have a dedicated pellet testing section on the forum, under reviews - pellet testing. There should be a standard info format at the start of each review that in includes: Airgun make, model Caliber Pellet make Model Weight Muzzel velocity Distance to target Target medium. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 12:56am
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Kruza wrote: Have been toying with idea of hollowing out an alloy and replacing with lead. I have a sneaking suspicion that the lead will turn into a shower of fragments as it punches through the alloy on contact with the target. I didn’t quite follow your thinking, are u talking about drilling out the front (making a hollow point, which is a bit of an oxymoron), or drilling out from the back into the skirt? With my experience from powder burning bullets that use solids made from monolothic brass, copper, and even aluminum, and different construction techniques using harder metals combined with lead, u can either use the harder metal for controlling the expansion of the lead, or u can use the lead to add weight to the alloy for penetration. If you drill out the front and make an alloy pellet into a hollow point, then fill the hollow point with lead, you will effectively have made a soft nose pellet. When fired one of two things will happen: depending on the thickness of the walls of the alloy “cup” holding the lead, they could open up, deform, and give controlled expansion of the lead as the pellet penetrates and dumps its energy into the target, (this would be perfect pellet performance), OR, the lead and the alloy will separate on impact, the lump of lead will penetrate the target and the lighter alloy pellet will penetrate less (or not at all). If you drill out the back of the pellet and fill it with lead, you have created a heavy alloy pellet, effectively a “solid”. The alloy is very hard (but not brittle) and will not deform when it hits hard bone, and with the weight of the lead pushing it, it should penetrate like a MoFo! I dont think the lead will smash through the head of the alloy pellet, u can’t use a soft metal to break through a harder metal, I think it will all hold together and just keep penetrating. My 2 cents worth. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 1:23am
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There's a differance in density in the metal. Drilling from behind and thinnind the walls, including the front wall. When the front wall hits and it encounters resistance and wants to stop and the mass of heavier metal behind it keeps pushing into it. It wouldn't be bonded to the alloy. I've used mercury in lead pellets the same way with a wax seal and its pretty dam impressive. But that is a heavy liquade metal and a soft metal skin. Accuracy wasn't something I tested but I imaging it would be sad over distance. You'll also see in some videos fmj leaving there jackets behind in mediums but the lead core continues. Gun and bullet tests reviews. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2024 at 11:35am
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Well just sorted through the first ever tin of cometa exact jumbo. .22, 1.030grams(15.90 grains) Pretty happy with first tin. 3 shot. 4 rejected on skirt damage. 4@1.06grams 19@1.05grams 15@1.01grams So that leaves 200 approx, either .01gram above or below stated weight. Roughly 60 odd each in 1.02/1.03 grams 80ish in 1.04 grams. Thats probly the most even weight distribution around the pellet weight I've had. Be interesting to see next tin and head size. Tidy well cast pellets as well. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2024 at 1:58pm
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Other tin had a few more 1.01 and 1.05grm 2 damaged. Rest all in that .02 to .04 with a lot falling on .03. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 10:27am
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Well I'm totally impressed. Those are the 2 most constant weight and head size I've ever seen in tins. Working off 1.03grms as stated pellet weight. Approx 100 of 500 fell into the 1.01grm and 1.05/1.06grm weight, head size still unsorted. Of the the 400 approx left,they all fell into 1.02-1.04grm. Of that 40 odd fell into the 5.51 and 5.54mm head size. Rest were 5.52mm and 5.53mm. The later having considerably more. Clean tins half a dozen damaged. If the gun likes these I'll be stocking up on this batch number if I can. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2024 at 11:11am
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Great when you find a good pellet. I remember when I was in the UK at the FT worlds, there were guys there buying trays of tins of pellets. The pellet suppliers would send them a couple different batches, then if they liked them they would buy up large, like 10,000 pellets worth.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2024 at 7:17am
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I'll get another 5 tins if he has the same run number. Waiting to hear. I'd be quite happy to have a bigger stash of sorted hunting pellets. 400/500 be nice. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2024 at 4:37pm
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Turns out I got 6 tins. He has a carton and a half left. How much is in a carton? Recons went to warehouse to have a look nothing close to the numbers I have him. Then got to the back and there they were. So Im thinking they grabed box or 2 from a differnt run/dye to fill the order. Dye 2. If you use them and want the batch number and place pm me. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2024 at 2:05pm
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Weighed 1000,4 rejected for skirt damage. As scales only do to .00 allowing .005 either side of weight. 95% approx fell into the 1.02,1.03,1.04 grms. 1.04 definitely having more than 1.03grms but not by much. 1.02grams less than that but all close, sort of 385,290,225 Of the 5% left 8 were 1.06grams 40% 1.01gram and 60% 1.05grams. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2024 at 11:54am
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So thought I'd throw up a visual instead of numbers. 1500 pellets worth. Up to at least a dozen damaged (mostly due a slight misshap while sorting.) Pellet weights of tins went from 1.01grm to 1.06grm. The 1.01grm I haven't sorted as need another container, also starting to get lighter than I want. 1.06grm goes left to right 5.51,5.52,5.53mm head size. The pellet box is from top to bottom is 1.05grm,1.04,1.03,1.02grm. Left to right, head size 5.50mm,5.51,5.52,5.53,5.54,. This is the full range of head sizes in tins. (1.01grm not sized yet)   If you ever wondered why you get Flyers! Over all I'm really happy with this. I've had bigger spreads and head sizes out of a single can before. Take note AA and hades not to even start on h&n. I'm after 5.53mm head size so stoked so many threw over 5.52mm though I'm hopeful the 5.52mm/5.54mm will be as acurate as well. I've already determined that the weihrauch seems to like the larger head sizes to the smaller. |
Posted By: G34
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2024 at 12:45pm
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I have to congratulate you on the amount of effort you put into this sorting. I have to ask though, is it worth it in a hunting situation where minute of rabbit head is what's required? I can understand, maybe, the value of it for 50m benchrest.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2024 at 1:09pm
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Yes it is. A flyer doesn't worry about minute of rabbit head. Deviations amplify over distance. I'll shoot out to 70m once I get better take that out to 80m. There's a photo in "you got to be out there to see" , of a rabbit I shot with the tx200. It also shows the pellet from the gamo I had which I removed from it's back leg. I rember the shot with gamo. It was a clean well placed head shot. I thought I had missed it as it ran off. I can tell you now that the lighter weight pellets and differnt head sizes will affect poi. Further you get from your bore size the worse it gets for head size. Weight and drop is pretty self explanatory. Finally it's a living being, why wouldn't I take all nessary steps to minimise the risk of wounding a animal and putting food in the bag. Target shooting pellet prep is ideal for hunting. One shot kills is what I strive for. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2024 at 9:29am
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U sure have been busy! I hope those little yellow plastic dividers are glued down to the bottom of that black container! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2024 at 10:52am
| They are not! I've already had one mishap with them, so put some cardboard inside of the joints. Want them movable till I sort out what head sizes and weights do what. Then I'll reorganise the partitions, line the bottom and glue them in. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2024 at 8:43am
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Maybe I should be looking at skirts as previous asked. Found an artical while looking for head sizer. Quote: The pellet head need only lightly touch the lands, so that the pellet doesn’t tip back and forth on the way down the bore, but the pellet’s skirt must cut into the rifling to effect an air seal. In springers, the skirt has a very important second function, as James has pointed out. It interacts with the chamfer at the breech end of the barrel. Together with the pellet's weight, this determines the point in the piston’s travel, at which the pellet begins to move. If the skirt is too small, the pellet takes off too soon; power is lost and there is a minor “slam fire” effect on the piston. If the skirt is too big, the pellet will linger too long and the piston will bounce, again wasting velocity and making more felt recoil. There is a lot of variety out there both in pellet skirt size (I’ve measured anything from .180” on Crosman ammo to almost .190” on some traditional RWS designs), and the breech chamfer detail (many guns today have a short, sharp-edged angled cut, some have a more carefully designed longer taper, some are in between). IMHO experimenting with different ammo to match up skirt size vs. breech fit, is a really important part of shooting springers. It can have a huge effect on accuracy, consistent velocity, and firing behavior. It’s long been curious to me that pellet weight and head size seem to get the lion’s share of discussion, while this aspect is rather ignored. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2024 at 9:09am
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Good observations. A point I learnt was that when fired, the air pressure from a springers piston builds behind the pellet until the pressure is enough to propel the pellet and parachuting (expanding) the skirt. So if there is a gap around the skirt, pressure will bypass the skirt. In a pcp, the pressure arrives instantly, parachuting the skirt against the rifling straight away. So a good fitting pellet in a springer is vital.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2024 at 9:21am
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Sigh one more thing to check. Time consuming, not fun, always interesting, amazing some of the tins I've had,especially the cheaper ammo, why I gave up on gamo pellets. (Though the red fire and one with ball bearing in nose have always given me good results (but never the best). Still if I'm hoping to constantly shoot from 60m to 90m accurately better get rid of all the variables, so I can adjust what I'm doing and not blame a pellet for bad shots. |
Posted By: flock
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2024 at 3:40pm
For the odd bent skirt I use a dummmy 308 round with 130g speer hollow point projectile, which is perfect for pushing the skirt back into shape. Quick & simple.
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2024 at 9:55am
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Great idea! Gawd dam right tool wrong tip.  Whats the dimension of your bullet tip? Might be able to cut lead off top. (after I separate the powder and fire primer) |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2024 at 12:20pm
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So in the interest of getting the most out of me old work boots, decided to shoot them to see what differnt pellets did out of same gun at 10 pumps @20m. Not overly exciting, penitration through leather, but that was it didn't make it through thin layer of foam or gortex lining. Pellet damage minimal with both the AA 16gr and h&n fft showing no ill effect and would have been reshootable. You can see the AA still in the leather on your right . Hades suffered enough skirt damage to not be usable again, and very slight head damage. But.....  Due to the fact skin isn't dry I decided to soak the Tounge in water for 10min and see what happened. Hoping the hydrostatic shock of water in the leather would open the pellets up. The resault  NOT ONE PELLET PENITRATED the leather. Go figure. Definitely didn't think that would happen. The gun is putting out around (slightly over or under) 7fpe with hades 15.89gr at muzzle, last time I did a reading on it. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2024 at 12:24pm
| Well it does say "Formidable Protection" |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2024 at 12:32pm
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That will be the refrance to the formidable protection label. What ever the rubber it is on laughed at pellets. Bounced off that part without hardly leaving a mark. Looking at the pic it's only a very shallow layer that's wet too. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2024 at 5:03pm
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After the wet boot tounge results with the 1322,decided to try the same with hw97. Set up is leather with foam backing then the boot innersole cut in half all taped together. Blitz through it at 36m wet or dry. Set it up at 80m caught pellets between front layer of sole and back layer. Approx 7fpe at target. After shot a couple of ftt which deformed f all, but had really nice rifling grooves in them, I thought might as well try a couple with a x cut into the head with stanley knife. Was hoping for a more expanded head with same penitration. What I got was unexpected. Not sure if one side shears off to the skirt or some thing else is going on. Did find some bits and pieces of lead in catch box. Didn't find additional holes or damage around the impact area. Any theories? 
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2024 at 5:29pm
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Wonder if I x4 cut from the neck of the skirt, up the back part of head to just below widest part of head if it would allow the front of the head to compress the under side and give better expansion. Maybe tommorow |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2024 at 7:58pm
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Haha that leather is as tough as an old boot!!! That's quite interesting, the fibers in the leather would make it almost bullet proof for airguns |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2024 at 8:12pm
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More so when wet. Doesn't tear as much with just a mil or so of leather wet. I'd be rather interested to see what it would do on a fresh hide, at full thickness. You work skins bb, what do you think a pellet would pierce better? Thinned, worked boot leather or fresh hide of a deer? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 8:13am
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Soaking the lether softens it and makes it more supple, thus allowing it to absorb more energy from the pellet with out breaking. If you dried the leather out it would become harder and more “brittle”, more likely to crack allowing the pellet to penetrate and would probably cause more deformation to the pellet. If you take those two situations to extreams, it’s like shooting a pellet into multiple layers of a hanging bath towel, will absorb all the pellets energy, towles will probably be fine and can probably reuse the pellet, vs shooting the same pellet into a 1mm thick galvanized sheet, damage to metal sheet, probably a hole, and pellet will be mooshed flat… ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 8:43am
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Wet leather is definitely more plyable. The extra engery it absorbs will vary on how loose the leather is. Tight wrapped it can't "give" as much due to tensed fibers. As both wet and dry were same distance and tension I see that theory as part of it. I think the swelling of the indervidual fibers also causes a denser matting (if that's the right word) of them, also making the leather denser than it was. Again speculation on my behalf. |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 1:49pm
| I remember hearing about if you shoot into a dry sheet hanging on a line the sheet will often catch the pellet. But if it's wet the pellet will pass through. Never tried the theory for fear of putting holes in my wife's sheets hahaha |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2024 at 3:01pm
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Just claim it was moths. Lol. So cutting under the head did nothing for expansion either. Did a couple of pellets each of a 4 and a 8 under cut. So disappointed and resigned to the fact I'm probly never going to get decent expansion without a pcp went onto something else I've been meaning to test. Dacron as a pellet catcher. After seeing how well the sleeping bag stopped crossbow bolts it's had me curious. So the non expanding pellets were shot into leather with a dacron backing at 10m from 1322. Caught them nicely. But hey the leather probly took some energy out. So I got rid of the leather, folded the dacron 6 layers thick, put it in my pellet trap (cheapo gun City thing that the rifles blew the back out of shortly after I got it and had to throw a couple of steel plates in.) pumped the 1322 up ten times, placed it an inch from the dacron, stood to the side and fired. Did it 5 times after no ricochet from the first. Though the pellet's would punch to layer 5 of the dacron, the pellet never got through the 3rd layer. Its pretty impressive stuff really. None of the pellets caught had any damage at all. You can buy the stuff. Some sleeping bags and cushions have it. The stuff I used was out of old cushions, but the sleeping bag will be getting pulled apart for target backing next fine day. 2 pics, two differnt shots. One to show how far it pushes into the dacron without letting through. (the next two layers looked the same) One to show the pellet caught and held and the indent into the other layers.  
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Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2024 at 12:21am
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Kruza, don’t scorn your HW for not getting mushroomed deformed pellets, none of my PCPs or springers do either, (in a rabbit) Seems u need to get a pellet moving well over 900 or 950fps to get them to mushroom in a “soft” target like a rabbit. Of course if u shooting something as hard as steel plate, a 4.FPE air rifle will get a lovely flat mushroomed pellet, but we’re not interested in shooting metal, we’re looking for perfect terminal ballistic performance in small game 😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |