What makes a pcp a pcp?
Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: General
Forum Name: Flub's General Discussion
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URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=709
Printed Date: 19 May 2024 at 6:31pm
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Topic: What makes a pcp a pcp?
Posted By: kruzaroad
Subject: What makes a pcp a pcp?
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 3:58pm
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So I was looking at a Seneca Aspen. . 25 pcp with built in pump same a Multipump. High pressure connection valve for filling. So if the filling valve taken off and a plug put in, would it then no longer be considered a pcp and a Multipump instead? I've looked on Web but cant find any definition of what makes a pcp a pcp under nz law. If it's precharging a cylinder then all multipump must be pcp. If its connecting it to a external filling source, either hand pump or tank, then it wouldn't be with filler valve removed. If its a pressure thing that wouldn't make scence as there are springers that hit the volicity of pcp. So there for must create the same pressure. If its multi shot then heaps of CO2 guns are Pcp. Anyone know the definition? |
Replies:
Posted By: J-S
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 4:27pm
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I’d look at it as prechargining with air for multiple shots.. co2 isn’t air so not pcp, multi pump charges for a single shot where the stored air is then expelled, so not pcp. If there was a multipump that allowed stored air for more than one full power shot then I’d say it’s a pcp. There are pcps that have an integral pump for charging. ------------- https://www.instagram.com/js_airguns/" rel="nofollow - J S Airguns Air Arms TX200('s) Theoben Sirocco HW77 FWB 300s Webley Patriot One or two others... Current projects: Too many.. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 7:50pm
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That sounds reasonable. Though the CO2 and air distention, Just because its not air, doesn't really separate the fact of mutishot pressurised chamber. What separates pcp from rifles? Is that a length thing? |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:20pm
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From what I can work out from what I can find, there is no definition. Technically its an air rifle and the only reason it has a special category, is it was issued one by Judith. After the shootings the biggest issue was it was semi auto, so delived multiple shots to cop who died. That would stand to reason as to why multi shot springers arnt banned, but not why CO2 arnt. |
Posted By: J-S
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 8:57pm
Co2 has a lot lower pressure than air, so only air classes as “especially dangerous” Rifles are designed to be shot from a shouldered position. There is a minimum length; 762mm I think.. I don’t know if it’s a legal minimum length or just a minimum length for importation. ------------- https://www.instagram.com/js_airguns/" rel="nofollow - J S Airguns Air Arms TX200('s) Theoben Sirocco HW77 FWB 300s Webley Patriot One or two others... Current projects: Too many.. |
kruzaroad wrote:Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2022 at 11:24pm
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Can't a pcp be filled with CO2 to the higher pressure if required? Would that then not be a pcp? |
Posted By: J-S
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 10:40am
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"Most PCP airguns run on between 3000 and 4000 psi" "CO2 works very differently. Unlike air, CO2 can be compressed into a
liquid at around 900 PSI. As long as there’s sufficient liquid in the co2 cartridge or bottle, the pressure will remain about 900 PSI at room
temperature." if a rifle is made as a pcp its a pcp, whether you fill with air, co2, nitrogen, helium. You would still need FAL to posess a rifle that is intended to be a pcp.. You cant use high pressure air in a co2 rifle as it will likely explode as its not built for the much higher pressure. ------------- https://www.instagram.com/js_airguns/" rel="nofollow - J S Airguns Air Arms TX200('s) Theoben Sirocco HW77 FWB 300s Webley Patriot One or two others... Current projects: Too many.. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 2:50pm
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A rifle may be made a pcp, that still doesn't explain the definition. No one seems to be able to say this is the written definition by nz law of a pcp. ( Im starting to wonder if there is one) And if you can, point me to it please. So let's skip CO2. What about a different gas. Nitrogen can be filled up to 6000 psi; air is typically not filled that high. Its also used a propellent in gas powered rifles. Though I imagine not at that pressure as it would require a much stronger bottle. Different connections. Arnt gas ram air rifles nitrogen filled? The three things I see that may define a pcp are ability to fire multiple shots from one fill (as mentioned earlier in thread to me) External Valves for filling from a outside source. Semi auto which was a concern at the time. Two of those can be found in lower powered CO2 guns. The other is not viable as pcp pistols use them. Here's some thing to think about, if there is no legal definition of a pcp, at some stage one will be written and in that definition will come a whole host of cross overs to other air guns. Or maybe they bring in the 12fps across the board. That will mean a lot of air rifles in ppls hands that will need a fal. |
Posted By: xyon
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:41pm
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Have you read the firearms act? ------------- --- My favourites springer - Diana 52 PCP - FX Wildcat III |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 8:20pm
| I've looked through various things in the act but I'll have a deeper look. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 9:16pm
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Man that is add tedium. Just spent the last 30min scrolling the definitions of arms act. Got past the descriptions around weapons, but by no means got through the whole act, or followed to many ref. But all I found was basically its a law passed and there is no definition. I've copied all the air rifle stuff, relative to this subject so far. Anyone want to see it shout out. I'll keep looking. |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 9:49pm
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Talking of compressing other gasses, I know a big bore airgun manufacturer in the US was using compressed nitrogen for their big bores. There are vids on YouTube. One thing I've been thinking for a long time is airaoft shooters using high pressure air regulatored down to 500ish psi. But if I change my bulk filled CO2 rifle to the same system using 850-900psi the same as CO2 it makes it a PCP. I haven't tried running air on my cr600w but it would make the shot string more consistent. |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 9:54pm
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Thing about the gun laws here is the average police wouldn't know the bare basics for airguns. And they seam to make the laws up as they go along as the pen pushes don't know anything. The UK laws seam to have been set by a airgunner to allow everyone to have some fun in each category |
Posted By: jwabfrog
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 11:16am
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The new laws were intended to reduce the risk of semi auto guns. CO2 guns are safer than compressed air (78% Nitrogen, 21% O2) due to the thermal / pressure characteristics of CO2. CO2 guns can't deliver the same pressures as compressed air PCPs and CO2 guns also can't be fired repeatedly without energy dropping. Google "phase diagram CO2" to see graphs illustrating the temperature and pressure properties of CO2. If you repeatedly fire a CO2 gun, the expanding gas has a cooling effect and causes the CO2 pressure to drop i.e. become safer. Taken to the extreme, the repeated expansion of the CO2 and resulting cooling can turn the CO2 into a liquid or even solid rendering the gun effectively useless. You could never run CO2 at PCP pressure - the CO2 would turn into a liquid. CO2 needs to be in gas form for the weapon to operate. In liquid form you would pull the trigger and release CO2 liquid into the breech, this liquid requires energy & time to boil in order to change into a gas and create the pressure needed to fire a slug. This is too slow: you need an instantaneous burst of expanding high pressure gas to launch a slug. Compressed air has a more favourable phase diagram for use in a weapon - it remains in gas form at way higher pressures than CO2. Given the same pressure, compressed air also remains in gas form at lower temperatures - meaning you don't run into the same cooling problems as CO2 with repeated firing. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 1:07pm
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Very nice description. So the ability of highly pressured gas to hold its faze ability and produce repeatable high energy shots ( in rapid succession) is probly the closest I've got to a description that fits with out other air gun cross overs. Encompasses and elimates differnt propellants. Should send that to the law makers. Be a nice to find that on a legal description site. To anyone who alluded to that before and I never clued on sorry. Thanks jwabfrog I can accept that as a definition for a pcp. Still haven't found a description in arms act. Won't start on well why aren't pcp pistols exempt. But definitely the definition I'll work of from now on, till I find a legal definition. |
Posted By: Billbobnz
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 6:07pm
| Yep I understand all that, but it would be nice to run CO2 guns at regulatored 850/900psi and do that without needing a FAL |
Posted By: dvlnme
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 1:11pm
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the definition of a pistol is any gun thats under 762 mm in length but when it comes to pcps the law consders any pcp airgun with a buttstock evan carbines the same as it does for those under 762mm in length as pcp rifles,if you convert any co2 rifle to use hpa its then legally considered to a pcp rifle,pcp pistols are exempt from this classification because they are not specifically mentioned in the law dispite them being under 762mm in length so are legally considered to be just the same catogory as any other air pistol,as the law dosnt mention how pcp airguns are charged any rifle that has an hpa cylander that can be filled with hpa by any fill method is considered to be a pcp rifle,the trouble with this law is that it was never thourght thru properly,so much of it is open to interpretation by nz police who then decide what the classification all airguns come under and that is how nz police administer this law,as nz police have been given total discrecression on how they now can interperate all firearms laws this is allso why replica soft airguns are now essentually banned imports as well as are allso many other types of co2 airguns,as for the rifle with the built in pump,because it has the capablity to be charged allso by other means and has an hpa cylander,nz police will consider it a pcp evan if the second charging system was removed,simpliy because it was origionally a pcp rifle,i wouldnt push that issuse with nz police the way they interperate the law these days,there are some pretty murky waters around the definition of a pcp rifle these days. cheers mike
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Posted By: dvlnme
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 1:23pm
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it comes down very simpliy to this as you have a firearms licence you pretty much do whatever you want with airguns,if you dont have a licence you cant put any co2 air rifle on hpa as it then becomes a pcp rifle which requires you hold a licence,i put co2 rifles onto hpa all the time but i hold a licence so i legally doso,they banned the import of QB co2 rifles because so many put them on hpa after the law was changed making all pcp rifles licence required simpliy because nz police believed this was being done by some who didnt want to get a licence to buy a pcp rifle,this wasnt the reason many did convert co2 rifles to hpa but thats what nz police believed was the reason they didso the new gun laws pertaining to airguns are a total mess because they are so vague and open to different interperation by nz police and unfortunatly nz police make the rules now. cheers mike
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Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 7:53am
| Then you can have a Marauder pistol, pcp without an FAL, but put the stock on it and you then need an FAL for basically the same thing. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 8:34am
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Are those straps that mount to the back of a gun and you put around your shoulder and pull against, instead of a stock concidered a stock? Or are they carry straps. |