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Night vision

Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Pauly's Technical Area
Forum Description: Technical information, Modifications and DIY projects are all in here
URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=1080
Printed Date: 19 Sep 2024 at 12:58pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.14 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Night vision
Posted By: nunga
Subject: Night vision
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2024 at 7:39pm
To all you guys that have your night vision i have a question with cameras and so forth.

Im trying to get my phone mounted to my scope. Ive 3d printed a adjustable clamp which works well. I have a infra red spotlight left over from a security camera setup i instilled for a client a few months ago. It has a 50mtr range and works fantastic with the cameras. But when i test it outside in the dark with my phone it doesnt see sh*t. same with my gopro...nothing. My question is what do you guys use to see through your scopes? Ive seen your videos on youtube with the night time shooting looks really cool but i just cant seem to get it to work.

If i shine the infra red spotlight directly into the phone camera or gopro it sees the light as purple


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014






Replies:
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2024 at 8:43pm
The night vision scope I have has a memory card slot for footage.
I've never used it bit I'm assuming it's taking its information from the screen display data stream.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2024 at 8:47pm
Found this on web

That's right! Your regular DSLR could very well be an infrared photography DSLR. If your digital camera is sensitive to infrared light, then all you need is an infrared filter (just as with black and white infrared film) and you're good to go.


Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 7:22am
You might find it has an IR filter.

When I had used sensor boards to make my NV I always had to remove the IR filter which is usually a slightly tinted looking piece of glass over the sensor. This makes it very sensitive to IR. 

So unfortunately I don't think phones work well for NV setups due to this filter.


Posted By: jwabfrog
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 9:13am
Hi Nunga, you get a black and white image with Pard and Arken Zulus. The sensors on these are recognizing IR wavelength light (outside of visbile light spectrum). Your phone and GoPro sensors are detecting visible wavelength (i.e. replicating what a human eye sees). They may not be able to detect / record IR light.

https://paulillsley.com/GoPro_Infrared/
"GoPro cameras have a filter installed inside the camera to block infrared wavelengths from reaching the sensor, but often these internal filters aren't 100% effective and do let a small amount of infrared information through."

Googling the same for a smartphone camera indicates most also have IR filters - but perhaps not on both the front and back cameras.

Cheers


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 9:23am
Yeah from my research i have been doing over the last few hours has come up with pretty much the same thing. I have seen people putting old floppy disk drive film over the camera to block out the light and only let in the infrared rays..but these people use it in the direct sunlight so i doubt it would work at night with my infrared spotlight


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 10:05am
Putting a sensor with lens directly behind the scope and using a reversing camera gets great results. I compared my old setup with my DNT Zulus, and as long as your sensor is good and lined up well, it'll work well.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 10:24am
Ir clip on lenses for smart phones, designed to filter out visable light so as it doesn't over ride the senors for ir light are cheap as chips


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Pauly5 Pauly5 wrote:

Putting a sensor with lens directly behind the scope and using a reversing camera gets great results. I compared my old setup with my DNT Zulus, and as long as your sensor is good and lined up well, it'll work well.


What are these sensors you keep referring to? a sensor with lens? how does this work?


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 11:48am
Phones can pick up ir.
Ir lenses filter out most visable light so the camera sensor ( the part in the camera/ph that the lens focus light onto, that is light sensitive and converts light into electrical data, previously the job of film with one pixel doing not quite as well the job of a grain on film)
Isn't overwhelmed with light that overpowers the ir light.
You should probly look up smart ph camera apps too. Some are designed with ir light programs incorporated.



Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 11:57am
720nm but double check that. Camera shops will have the lenses in genral


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:07pm
yes i know all of this. But this is for "daytime" shooting with IR. at night there is not visible light because it is dark. So putting a filter over the lenses to filter out all the light which isn't there anyway because it is dark does not make any sense to me?

Or am i missing something?


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by nunga nunga wrote:

Originally posted by Pauly5 Pauly5 wrote:

Putting a sensor with lens directly behind the scope and using a reversing camera gets great results. I compared my old setup with my DNT Zulus, and as long as your sensor is good and lined up well, it'll work well.


What are these sensors you keep referring to? a sensor with lens? how does this work?

Sensor is the small circuit board with the small square bit that the lens focuses the image onto.



You can see the sliver of glass/IR filter over the top. This can be taken off.




Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:32pm
Sounds logical.
Pauly seems to be knowledgeable than me
Try that.
Still
If there is no visable light you can't see at night at all. I. E nothing pitch black.
Night photography on a smart ph requires time, because it pics up the visable light, but it's weak so needs more time for the image.
Exposing the lens may increase the amount visable light that gets to the lens cause wash out. That's my understanding.




Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:40pm
To answer this. Cameras, like our phones, security all have an IR filter to block IR, as during the day there is too much Infrared light and it would "blow out" the image. So for cameras that are used for night vision, the filter has to be removed. 

If you have ever held a security camera then turned the lights out, you will most likely hear a click. This is the filter being swivelled away.

Kruz, you will experience this when you switch the Sytong between night and day vision.

So for making a DIY unit, it is easier just to remove the IR filter off the front of the sensor. This will make the image "blown out" during the day, but of course you don't need night vision during the day.

Nunga, I have a few sensors and bits and pieces you can have to play around with. Lets trade brass for nightvision stuff.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:42pm
Cheers. Makes sence to me.


Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 12:43pm
This is an old video, but he does explain how things work. I based all my builds off this.

https://youtu.be/4wnNFR99xGI?si=6EMXQp-Cvah3o-AP

Rolaids Bench - Nightvision 101.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 1:16pm
So I'm not sure where he removed the filter?
Looked like he just put a standard camera behind the lens. Or was it a ir camera?
Interesting set up.
Definitely need to bi pod that lot for shooting.


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 2:18pm
I have a couple of old mobile phones. might pull one apart and see if i can get to the filter and remove it. if i can do that problem solved. I did try this a few years back with another old camera but i couldnt get a lens for it and the wide angle default lens couldnt focus in the scope but it did pickup IR and was good.


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 2:59pm
My understanding grom what I've read,is if it has face recognition, then it's able to pick up ir as that's used to scan your face.
But that's on the selfy camera.


Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 4:23pm
It's not that hard to make a unit with recording capability.
To be honest the trickiest part is making it practical to use as it sticks out off the scope.

You could set it up so instead of looking at the screen, the image goes to a set of VR goggles, but your vision will only see what the scope sees, unless you switch between pov camera and scope cam.

Roland actually builds that, and while cool, it does restrict you. It's worth a watch.




Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2024 at 5:00pm
Gee i had a headset  googles  thingy which my son gave me along with a drone. i binned everything because i couldnt get the remote to go. come to think of it the drone came with 3 spare cameras as well.. oh crap. I knew it. As soon as you get rid of something you think you will never use you end up needing it


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 1:21am
Nunga, do u want to video what your scope is seeing while u shoot, during the day, or at night, or both?

I’ve gotten confused reading all of the above 😂
If u want to record during the day u just need a cell phone attached to your scope.
The sun provides ample natural IR light and a call phone is designed to block it out.

If u want to record at night there is no sun, so no natural IR light and no light at all, (obviously it’s dark, it’s night) so u need an artificial IR source, and you also need a camera that can see IR light. A standard cell phone or go pro can’t see IR light, as has been mentioned they have IR filters and will need to be modified.

If you are interested in shooting in the dark with an IR light and camera I have an old IR kit that attaches to a normal optical scope, that I don’t use any more. It has its own IR light, IR camera that attaches to the scope where your eye would go, and a small screen that shows what the camera is seeing through the scope so u can see your crosshairs and what ever the scope is seeing.
In its day it was cutting edge. I’ve shot plenty of rabbits and rats with it. Still works well enough.
Let me know if you are interested.


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Walk quietly, but carry a big stick.


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 9:38am
I am wanting to see through the scope at night without a normal torch for pest control. pretty much for the same reason you were asking about the pigeons lol. I was thinking it would be better shooting them at night when they are nesting as from my experience they do tent to fly away during the day and you only really will get a couple of shots before they figure it out.

Recording would be nice but not a major

I am booked in for friday to do the job and it is the same place as last time so i shall see how it goes for the second time round. 


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 9:57am
https://youtu.be/xCy_d29R6gQ?si=mJnp9V1GAhKL6R29

Nunga, if you want to look through your scope at night, you will need something like the Sytong HT88 or Pard NV007.

If you can get a compact camera or phone mounted onto the scope, you will need to remove the IR filter.

If you go the DIY route, it is easy to mount a sensor with a small lense onto scope, but you still need to see the image and a small reversing camera screen is easiest, as small viewfinder screens are pricey unless you can reuse one from an old cam corder.

Video above shows my original build. It works really well and even has a mini dvr recoreder built in.


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 10:07am
Yeah i did see that video. It was interesting. ive also seen a similar one where he used his phone as the screen and at the same time the phone also powered a usb camera which was mounted on the scope. I have the usb conversion cable here (i think) i also might have an old laptop webcam which i converted to run off a usb cable as well. I dont really want to spend any money if i can help it. It is a good challenge to see if i can get this to work with crap i have laying around the house


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 10:25am
I will have a look at what I have. Pretty sure I have some sensor boards, lenses, battery holders and a couple of reversing camera screens. Generally need around 8 - 12v.
So let me know if you need anything as it's just sitting in my parts box collecting dust.


Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:10am
An old phone with face I'd will give you an ir camera.
From Wikipedia:The Face ID hardware consists of a sensor with three modules; a laser[4] dot projector that projects a grid of small infrared dots onto a user's face, a module called the flood illuminator that shines infrared light at the face, and an infrared camera that takes an infrared picture of the user, reads the resulting pattern, and generates a 3D facial map. This map is compared with the registered face using a secure subsystem, and the user is authenticated if the two faces match sufficiently. The system can recognize faces with glasses, clothing, makeup, and facial hair, and it adapts to changes in appearance over time.



Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:12am
It will also have the software to interpret ir light.


Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:52am
Thanks Paul.  Kruzaroad, the only problem with face id hardware on the phones is the camera for this is on the front camera the same side as the screen so the screen would be facing the scope and you wouldnt be able to see anything lol


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2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014





Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:52am
Nunga,
If u can find where the pigeons are roasting at night, then get to them in the dark with out a light, u can pick them off one by one and they won’t fly if it is dark.

This is the kit that I have, it’s fully contained and works well. You just set it up and attach it to your scope.
It has a AV jack (?) for connecting to any device that can record, so u can record as well.
Works in the day and at night.

You are welcome to try it if u want.
I’m probably going to put in up on trade me as I don’t use it any more.





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Walk quietly, but carry a big stick.



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