JSB Knock Outs 10gr .177
Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Reviews
Forum Description: Rate your airgun or pellets here
URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=1077
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2024 at 11:30pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.14 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: JSB Knock Outs 10gr .177
Posted By: RangerPete
Subject: JSB Knock Outs 10gr .177
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2024 at 6:39pm
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Package just arrived.... Saw these on trademe the other night and had to get some to try. They have had good reviews on you tube, but up till now I dont believe they have been avalible on NZ. The only .177 slugs avalible in NZ were Sypdas 13.4gr, but Ive really been wanting to try a 10gr slug. These have a hollow base, and a decent depth hollow point. Going to try then in Little Elly at about 12.4FPE, so I'm expecting about 740ish fps or there abouts, and then goint to try them in Emma, hopefully around 1000fps. So excited to start playing with these! Will post updates as we go... ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Replies:
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2024 at 6:40pm
 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:19am
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Very encouraging results so far... Tried them through two different rifles, one didnt like them, one did. Had a few rabbit carcasses in the back of my truck from a separate caliber test I'm doing, so put one or two of these Knockout slugs through them... Very interesting indeed!!! Finally seeing the terminal ballistic performance I've always wanted from pellets, pity its from slugs, but it seems to be there. More testing and then results to follow. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 11:23am
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Expanded to 7.3 to 7.8mm (depending on where you measure it.) If it had been an even round equally radisued mushroom it would have been 8mm wide! Excellent mushroom. Recovered from under skin on far side of a rabbits chest.   Two different tests of side on head shots exited completely, BUT, totally destroyed the brain case, literally cracking the skulls into pieces from hydrostatic forces within the brain case!!! Ive shot hundreds of rabbits through the head with 8.44gr exacts and never seen anything like that before!!! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 12:21pm
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What guns did you test with? ------------- 2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 2:38pm
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Little Elly, an Air Arms S510 carbine doing just over 12FPE, shes the one that wasnt so keen on them. And Emma, a FX Wildcat. Tried different power levels with the wildcat, and there is definatly an optimum velocity. I'll chrono the different settings to night and get the speeds they like, but it was not as fast as I was thinking. Its still fast, but I was thinking they would like screaming sub sonic, fast as you can push them, power wheel 7, turns out its not they liked power wheel 4 and 5. Will chrono tonight. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: nunga
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2024 at 2:55pm
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nice. ive only ever used the rabbit magnum from H&N. My hatsan didnt like them at all. so that was the end of that lol ------------- 2nd place HP springer - WFTF World Championships 2014 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2024 at 3:52pm
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Chronoed the two rifles and these slugs through the little AirArms are giving around 11FPE, and the FX wild cat on full power is giving 998fps for 21.5FPE, which is what the recovered pellet from under the rabbits skin was doing. The most accurate velocity was power setting 5, 950fps, 20FPE. More testing is obviously required, but this could be a game changer for rabbit culling. When culling rabbits on someone else’s property, my go to set up is a .177 cal, 8.44gr exact pellet doing 813fps for about 12,3FPE. Deadly accurate and comfortable out to 70 yards, can stretch it out to 90y under perfect conditions, but I expect a pass through with every shot because .177’s usually ice pick through rabbits, but I’m comfortable with that amount of energy and choosing my shots carefully. For very big property’s with more space, my “big gun” is a .22cal 15.89gr hades pellet doing 850fps for around 25FPE. A lot of energy to be sending down range, but the bigger surface area of a .22 slows it down more and with the extra space and Carefull shot selection, I’m comfortable using that amount of power on certain property’s. But these 10gr slugs, at 950fps giving 20FPE could be the perfect combination. Flat shooting at those velocity’s, hard hitting at 20FPE and should carry plenty of energy at longer distances with the slugs good BC, but super expanding and mushrooming, dumping all their energy in the target and not exiting a rabbit at 39yards, wow!!! At closer ranges, I expect head shots to still over penetrate and exit, so Carefull shot selection is still par for the course, but preliminary testing shows DEVISTATING internal damage from slug expansion when compared to a 8.44gr exact. Very exciting, and more testing to come 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2024 at 4:53pm
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So I haven't gotten around to actual quantitive test results yet, been busy with the sub 16 comparison, but I have used these little slugs for two jobs this week, and their performance has been excellent both times! First job was a pukeko cull. I acquired a culling permit for 15 pukekos for a client, and used Little Emma with these Knockout slugs for the job. FX Wildcat Mk3, 600mm barrel pushing these 10gr slugs at 954fps for 20.2FPE. Shots were between 20y and 65yards, and their performance was excellent, I couldnt have asked for better. Second job was at a horse racing track for rabbits last night. This is a difficult property to cull rabbits on because it is very open, no cover, close to a mountain so can be windy, and there are a lot of people who walk their dogs here, so the rabbits have been well educated that people = danger because they have been chased by every dog in the area and/or I'm guessing that they have been shot at by every guy and his dog who's got a slug gun and nothing better to do on a Friday night. Even with all my sneaky tactics I struggle to get with in 100 yards of them before they start hopping away... quite frustrating. Anyway, I finished on 29 for the night which included two hares. The close shots were 65yards and the longest shot of the night was 99yards. And I was definatly able to appreciate the benefit of slugs at those distances! Yes, I know I could have taken any of those shots with Little Elly and her 8.44gr exact at 12.4FPE and she would have been just as deadly, but you need all the odds stacked in your favour for long shots like that with a 12FPE pellet. I definatly felt more confident and there fore more comfortable taking them with a slightly heavier and faster slug, and the MUCH better BC of the slugs is what gives them that better performance further down range. Have a look at these stats, the 100 yard comparison blew my mind! The Ellement ballistics app compares them as follows: Little Elly. 8.44gr exact at 813fps. BC 0.019 12.4FPE at muzzel. 3.5FPE at 100yards, with 27.5 inches drop. Little Emma. 10.03gr Kock Out at 954fps. BC 0.047 (huge difference in BC) 20.3FPE at muzzel (63% more energy at the muzzel) 11.4FPE at 100 yards, with 12.8 inches drop. Read those 100 yard stats of each one again! The differences at the muzzel are stright forward, they are what they are, but the differences at 100 yards are HUGE!!! 3.5 times the energy and less than half the drop, from a projectile that only weighs 1.6gr more! Anyway, I was very happy with the performance of these little slugs last night on what is usually a difficult property to cull on. I'm looking forward to recovering some rabbits in future, finding the slugs and getting some real world performance test results. More to come... ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2024 at 2:17pm
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I've used Little Emma and the 10gr slugs for the past few nights, picked up 3 rabbits the other night and 7 rabbits last night for necropsys. I've just finished opening them up to see what the slugs are doing, and to try and recover some them. Recovered 9 out of 10. Pretty impressive! Ive decided to do a video on their performance. Heres a teaser of what the recovered slugs look like. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2024 at 2:20pm
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9 out of 10 recovered so far. The ones that are mushroomed nicely are usually found in the skin on the far side. The ones that look chewed up have hit heavy bones i.e. more than just ribs.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2024 at 12:48pm
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Pete are the H&N Baracuda at 10.65 gr no good? Ron suggested these for my Diana. ------------- |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2024 at 2:40pm
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You can't say one pellet fits, even the next 2 guns off the production line. If ron recommended that pellet it's probly because people have good results with it in general in that gun. If it shoots well keep that as your base pellet and slowly try differnt pellets till you find better. At end of day, you got to try differnt pellets to find what your gun likes. We can recommend pellets based on quality and how well they preform in other guns. That's not not how your rifle may see them probly the suxiest part of sorting your rifle till you find one. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2024 at 3:44pm
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As Kruza has said, u just got to try it. My D54 seems to like the JSB heavies, 10.34gr if I remember correctly. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2024 at 5:57pm
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Pete, I was just wondering whether the H&Ns were no good in your barrel - as that's around the weight you wrote you're looking for at 10.65 gr...and yes, I'll be trying a few pellets in both rifles. ------------- |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2024 at 8:41pm
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The expansion from these 10.03gr Knockout slugs is nothing short of amazing. No pellet I have ever tested has ever performed like this. One of the recovered slugs I have was from a head shot at 25yards. Entered left side of the rabbits head next to the eye. Expanded and dumped all of its 21FPE, and I recovered it under the skin on the right side of the head!!! A rabbits head is only 5cm wide! It seems totally counterintuitive to increase projectile speed and energy in order to stop projectiles over penetrating and exiting, but here is the proof…  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2024 at 9:08pm
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Slugs have always out preformed pellets. If you have a gun that can shoot them. Your photos show just how much and it's a really good bit of research and presentation on your behalf. I've been enjoying watching as you do it. Cheers |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 12:43pm
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RangerPete wrote:Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 3:00pm
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Hi Mark, The recovered slugs were from shots from 25y, 30ish, 47, 58, 80something and 100yards. It will all be in the video 👍🏻 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 3:13pm
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Far out - and I really do mean far out with still heaps of hitting power... I'm going to sell my LRs and buy a PCP. ------------- |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2024 at 12:29am
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Got these today… More testing to follow.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2024 at 6:39pm
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I tried lubeing some of these slugs, to see if some lubrication would make any difference to their velocity and more importantly if it would tighten up their groups. I used an old bottle of Napier Pellet Power lube that I have had for a long time. 1 drop per 100 slugs. Well the long and the short of it is, the velocity went up, from an average of 993fps to an average of 999fps. No noticeable difference in group size. So not really worth the effort of lubing them. I've been using the 10grainers for a while now and been very happy with their terminal ballistic performance (expansion and stopping power), but the groups are not as tight as I'd like. At 35 yards I'd get 3 touching, and two out the group. Not very far out, but far enough to know its not me, and far enough for it to bug me. So what could be causing this...? 1 - it could be me, but its not. I know when I've pulled a shot. 2 - it could be the slugs? Inconsistencies with weight, damaged skirts, damaged pellets...? maybe, but when visually inspected they all look perfect, in fact I cant see any damage to any of them. Could be weight and head size, but Ive been shooting JSB for years and have faith in their quality. 3 - it could be the rifle. Barrel, or tuneing/pressure. Do I try go faster, or maybe slower? Try fine tunning the hammer spring pre tensioner screw? Is the twist rate just not fast enough for slugs? Maybe it just needs a clean? Well I dont think its me and I dont think its the slugs, so time to look at the rifle. Some barrels shoot beautifully their entire lives and never ask to be cleaned once. Some barrels like a clean once in a while, and some demand to be cleaned after every use. I was hoping Little Emma would be the first kind. I've put over 1000 projectiles through her barrel since I got her a few months ago, and never cleaned her, so maybe its time? They say when you are trying to perfect something you should never change more than one variable at a time... Well I got overly excited and changed two. The results are good, but now I dont know if it was one or both changes that gave the better results. I cleaned the barrel, AND I tried the 13.43gr slugs before fully testing the groupings of the 10grainers  Well I'm happy with the results either way. At 40yards I'm getting one hole groups. I kept the power wheel on no.7, and the velocity has dropped from 999fps with the lubed 10grainers, to 892fps with the unlubed 13.4grainers. The power has gone up from 22.3FPE to 23.7FPE I'm happy with all of that. I prefer the idea of sending a projectile down range (on someone elses property) at 892fps in stead of 999fps. I also fine tuned them with one eighth turn adjustments on the hammer spring pre tensioner screw. The extreme spread of velocities in a group went from 19 feet difference at the worst, to 3 feet difference at its best where it now is, so thats pretty consistent. The next question is what will the bigger slugs terminal performance be like? Are they going to expand as beautifully as the faster 10gr's or are they going to start passing through a rabbit? Will they have the same devastating stopping/knock down power? More testing and necropsys needed... ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2024 at 6:42pm
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Changing from the 10grainers to the 13.4grainers, velocity has dropped by about 100fps, kinetic energy has gone up from 22.3FPE to 23.7FPE And groups seem to have tightened up at 40yards.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2024 at 12:58am
| Nice shooting Pete. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2024 at 8:06am
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How did it affect the arc of the pellet in flight. Thats huge fps drop. You too taking note of dye numbers on slug tin? Think your pellet size checker will be help but flyers are a part of air rifle shooting. My weighing and sizing has helped limit flyers but they still happen. I tend to wonder if at times that during feeding a pellet in, maybe it goes a tad bit less strait than usual and takes or flatens a tiny flat spot on head. Or maybe in the case of hollow point slug,just slightly nicks the hollow point tip. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2024 at 8:13am
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Looking good Pete. With the power wheel, if you feel that turning down a notch increases accuracy, will one more notch tighten again, or open the group up? Once you know that, maybe there's a sweeter spot in between those notches. Of course you then have to adjust the micro adjustment, but if you record the increments you go in, maybe you can find that sweet, sweet spot. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2024 at 10:30pm
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The drop in velocity doesn't bother me at all. Both are still pretty fast, basically 1000fps vs 900fps. Zeored at 35 or 40 yards, their trajectories are with in a few mm of each other out to 50yards. Basically identical out to 50y. Where it gets interesting is if you look at the 100 yard figures... 10gr slug - at 100 yards drop is 11.9 inches, velocity 727fps, energy 11.7FPE 13,4gr slug - at 100 yards drop is 12.9 inches, velocity 731fps, energy 15.92FPE The 13,4grain slugs are 34% (3,4grains) heavier, and leave the muzzel 10% slower than the 10grainers. The difference in drop at 100 yards is only 1 inch, BUT, because of their much better BC the heavier slug is now traveling faster than the 10grainer, and is carrying 37% more energy. That is amazing. The BC's by the way are 0.047 for the 10grainer and 0.066 for the 13grainer. I was out at that difficult race track again last night, the one with the wild rabbits you cant get close to. The close shots are 60yards, and from there its anything out to a 100yards. I took Little Emma and used the 13.43gr slugs. Finished on 24 rabbits and 6 hares. Well they certainly do hit hard, which was to be expected. Unfortunately I was under pressure for time so I did not collect any rabbits for necropsys, so I still cannot tell you if they expand like the 10grainers and weither or not they pass through. But I'm sure I'll have a few carcasses to investigate in the not too distant future. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 4:04am
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Uuum doesnt a thousand fps put you into transonic where as 900fps doesnt? Is this the gun your trying to sort the flyers out on. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 6:53pm
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Ja, I'd say 1000fps is trans-sonnic, but I dont think trans-sonic applies to slugs, completely different shape to pellets. Nothing I have ever read about slugs makes any reference to trans-sonic problems, in fact most slugs seem to perform best at 1000fps and more! ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 9:27pm
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It does. https://youtu.be/HpDKxVuRWto?si=AYxd76u6ZpF3VujU |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 11:29pm
| I could be wrong, but isn't any object that goes faster than sound going to create the "crack"? |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 6:07am
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The speed of sound in feet per second (fps) depends on the temperature and the material through which it travels: At 0° C (32° F): The speed of sound is 1,086.9 ft/s. At 20° C (68° F): The speed of sound is 1,130 ft/s. At room temperature: The speed of sound is 1,125 ft/s. The speed of sound is faster in warm air and slower in cold air. The speed of sound in water at 8° C (46° F) is about 4,721 ft/s. Transonic is the level that both sub and super sonlc airflow start to form on different parts of the projectile,the projectile shape plays a part in that formation. It affects any projectile. It happens mostly when dropping to out of supersonic but if your right up on the edge of that speed,airflow differences created by the slug can induce the effect. Most of the stuff I've looked at has shooters around 950fps max if they want to say under transonic. As you can see temp could effect that margin. Look at speed of sound in water. At least that's my understanding of it. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 9:37am
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The “crack” is called a sonic boom and happens when an object breaks through the sound barrier, I.e. goes faster than the speed of sound (on that day, at that altitude, at that temp etc…) As Kruza says above, speed of sound is dependent on the density of air (or other medium) it is traveling through, hence the altitude and temperature dependency. But as a general rule of thumb on most average shooting days, in most average shooting countries, it is between 1100 and 1150fps. All the top guys who are shooting slugs in extreme long range and bench rest competitions shoot slugs between 950 and 1100 fps and you never hear any sonic booms when they are shooting. As far as transsonic pressure waves effecting projectile stability goes, all those top guys are shooting sub moa groups at 100, 120, 150 even 200 yards. So transsonic speeds don’t seem to be effecting their slug performance in any way. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 10:13am
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The Guinness world record, .177 for distance is sub 12 foot pounds with the 7.33 gr pellet at 850 fps! This from the guy who has done the world's furtherest shot. Big bore 1265m, 1777 yards (Quote) thank you, with this I want to take a longer break from shooting above 1200m. It was for a velocity of 260 m/s = 853 fps, at a higher velocity the BC would be slightly higher. My friend from abroad who also uses ATP Smooth 49.5gr but at higher speed measured BC G1 0.238 at speeds of 294 m/s 964 fps ( end quote) Think you better look at what fps the guns were set to not the fps they can produce. To because all of the Dr top guys aren't shooting over 1000fps Here's a 🔗 to video. Go to very end even then you'll here them say “maybe 900fps“ https://youtu.be/FQW3x8EqZi0?si=QIhfqRaXMI6hJoca |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 10:24am
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What is an average shooting country? That's got to be the biggest load of cat trap I've ever heard. India has a strong air rifle following high arse temps. Canada had a strong air rifle following they hit sub zero. Asian areas can be hot and have a near 100% humidity that affects flight etc etc |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 11:26am
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Average shooting country is not the south pole and not the saraha desert. Average shooting country is where most people like to live because the average temperature is above freezing and below 50 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 12:21pm
| That makes no sense either. Every country contains multiple environments. I've shot in the snow. Wet.wind.high humidity.low humidity.rain.sun.crisp nights warmnights. there is no average shooting conditions countys it in my view. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 7:38pm
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I hate dissecting birds. Feathers are such a pain in the ass, and they go everywhere. Was doing a culling job yesterday morning and while I was wondering around looking for my target species, a few pigeons came down and landed in the paddock. The land owner had said if I can I should shoot them too, so I sent a few 13grain knock out slugs their way. Got 5 or 6 and then got busy with other stuff. One in particular was a very pretty white, grey and black bird, would have made any pigeon fanciers heart happy, but anyway, it turned and walked directly towards me and took a slug into the dead center of its chest, just below the neck. I though if these 13grainers expand like the 10grainers, that one had the best chance of stopping in the bird with a head on chest shot, so I collected it and brought it home. After 12 minutes of careful dissection, following the wound channel basically along the full length of the bird just under the spine, and trying to keep all the feathers on the bird and not all over my yard... I found a small exit hole, hidden by feather, just above the tail feathers  So I'm still none the wiser to how they perform. More investigating to come. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 8:53pm
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You could skin it. It would keep all the feathers still anchored in the skin and exit holes show up better on the meat. So what was the wound channel like? Did it look like it expanded? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2024 at 1:31pm
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Wound channel had a lot of damage all the way through, and plenty of congealed blood. More damage than I would expect from an 8.44gr exact. The exit “hole” if u could call it that also looked bigger than what I would expect an 8.44gr would make, so I’m guessing it wasn’t just the extra FPE and there was some expansion. More tests will reveal all. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2024 at 11:24pm
4 hares and a smallish rabbit. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2024 at 11:25pm
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I was out on another race course two nights ago and took Little Elly and her 8.44gr exacts, and Little Emma and her 13gr slugs with me. Was a good night, I finished very late (I hate daylight savings!) and finished on 17 rabbits, 5 hares and a rat. I thought the hares, being 3 or 4 times the size of a rabbit, would be a good test medium to see how the slugs perform, so I collected 4 hares and one smallish rabbit for dissection. The rabbit was a double shoulder shot, through both shoulder blades, at around 40 ish yards, and the hares were various angles through the chest, shoulders, spine and neck, with one head shot. Hares shots ranged from 40yards out to 113yards. Well, after about half an hour of careful skinning and dissecting, do you know what I have to show for my efforts...? Nothing. Not one slug recovered. So what does this tell us? Well I've had a few days to think it over and here are my conclusions. I dont believe that these slugs are expanding. If they were I would have surely found at least one in a hare, or at the very least under the skin on the far side! If I had been shooting the 10grainers at 996fps for 22FPE, I know they would have mushroomed beautifully and stopped with in the targets, I know this from experiance. If I had been shooting 8.44 exacts at 813fps for 12.4FPE, the rabbit would have probably not been a pass through (.177 round nose pellets do tend to icepick through things and it wasn't a big rabbit), but most of those pellets at those distances would have definitely still been in those hares. So why were the 13grain slugs not in the hares? Because I believe at 892fps, they are not expanding, they are acting like a heavy solid, or a heavy round nosed diabolo pellet and are simply over penetrating. So why are they not expanding? There are two reasons I can think of. 1- They are not traveling fast enough. 2 -Their hollow point design/shape is not big enough. Maybe be a combination of both. The faster a projectile hits "something", the harder that "something" behaves. Like shooting directly into water, at slow impact speeds there will be a small splash and the water will just engulf the projectile and the pellet retains its shape. The same pellet having a very high velocity impact will cause the water to act very hard there will he a big splash and will the pellet will deform (or mushroom). It is actually quite difficult to get a diabolo shaped pellet to "mushroom" in a rabbit, unless you hit heavy bone, which will chew up the pellet, not really mushroom it. To get an 8.44 grain to "mushroom" in soft tissue is almost impossible. I know this because I have recovered many pellets from many rabbits. If fact with my sub16 FPE test (video is almost finished), I found that an 8.44gr exact at 921FPS, (15.9 FPE) will pass diagonally through all the soft tissue and stop under the far side skin of a rabbit, and be recovered looking perfect and almost re-usable. And yet you can shoot the same 8.44gr exact at 400fps into a solid steel plate and it will turn into an M&M! So how fast do you need to hit a rabbit to make that rabbit act "hard enough" to deform and mushroom a projectile. I dont know the exact answer to that question, but I'm sure there is a direct correlation between the answer to that question and the design shape of the pellet or slug. A hollow point is definatly going to help the projectile expand, there by reducing the required velocity. When I compare the 10gr KnockOut Mk3 (third design shape) side by side to the 13.43gr Knockout (which is still at Mk1, first design), there is a very big difference between the shape, size and diameter of the two hollow points I have no way of quantifying the differences, my vernia can't measure a cavity that small, but the 10grainers hollow point looks at least 50% wider in diameter, it is also slightly deeper (measured very unscientifically with a tooth pick). Because the hollow point diameter is wider, the walls of the slug are visibly thinner, which will certainly aid in their opening up. The 13grainer definatly has a more robust and solid construction, smaller hollow point, thicker side walls and is a bit longer than the 10grainer (of course it needs to be to get those 3,4 extra grains of lead in there). I believe the 13grainer will expand and mushroom, IF it is traveling fast enough, but at 892fps I dont think I'm pushing them fast enough to get them to mushroom in soft tissue and give the terminal ballistic performance that I'm looking for. Does that mean they are no good? Of course not! They were giving tiny one hole groups at 40yards, velocity's with an extreme spread of 3! I took a hare at 113 yards with a 13.4gr .177 projectile, thats nothing to turn your nose up at. If you wanted to use them for close range or long range hunting, I have no doubt they will, and do, kill just as dead as any other pellet or slug. Even if you wanted to use them for extreme bench rest shooting, they would be perfectly suitable and fit for purpose, no problem at all. But I am looking for a very particular type of performance, I am looking for devastating terminal ballistic performance. I want a projectile that dumps all of its energy into the target, mushrooms and comes to a complete stop with in the target, NO exiting. I am also trying to get that performance from the smallest, lightest, lowest energy projectile possible, and still be accurate at distances out to 100yards. The 10grainers at 999fps were giving that type of performance but the groups were not as tight as I would have liked. So I'm going to go back to the 10grainers and spend some time trying to fine tune Little Emma with 1/16th turns of the hammer spring pre tensioner screw, till I can get their extreme spread as close to 1 as possible, and we'll take it from there  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2024 at 11:32pm
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10grainer with larger mouth and thinner walled hollow point on left. 13.4grainer with more robust construction, smaller hollow point cavity and thicker walls on right.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 11:58pm
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Was working on a big property tonight so I thought I'd give the 13grainers one last try, and took Little Emma and the 13.4grain KnockOut slugs out to work tonight. They sure do shoot straight and hit hard! Only 3 rabbits and a possum, but they literally knock the rabbits over. I have noticed quite a hight occurrence of ricochets when using these 13.4grainers. Only a few but still way too high for my liking. But I guess thats a product of the high passthrough rate and the high retained energy slugs carry down range, especially if they havent dumped much of that energy into the target. Tomorrow I'll be changing back to the 10grain slugs, retuning the rifle and rezeroing scopes at 40yards. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 12:58pm
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Pete what does the "M 24/23" refer to? I note big M number difference between to 10.03 and 14 gr slugs. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 1:00pm
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 1:54pm
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Government labeling requirements in the Czech Republic Here's a link to hard air magazine how to read jsb labels. https://hardairmagazine.com/buyers-guides/the-easy-ham-guide-to-jsb-pellet-tin-labels/ Hard air do a whole heap of pellet testing you see the results of as well. Not accuracy as thats gun dependent, but quality testing |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 2:29pm
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Well, that is one helluva list of defns Kruzaroad! The M no. meaning is a secret huh? Just gummint codes probably with no logical meaning assigned by the Head Gummint Bean Counter... God I miss working for the gummint, driving around in the 4WD all day, (Kruzing da road) easily keeping the boss happy by every now and then pinging a poacher. But with my big mouth there's no way i was never going to get promoted...and it took dumb me 11 years to figure out that you must tell the boss what he wants to hear rather than the reality of the situation. No regerts though - I'd likely be useless half dead and rotting wood by now if i was still working for the gummint. 
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Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 3:44pm
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It's got something to do with some regulation the Czech government has to follow impossed by others Got board going through their regulations trying to find out what exactly. Think it's some sort of proofing mark for quality or pass for a manufacturer. They do have some interesting air gun laws mind. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 5:17pm
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Ja it has to do with regulations from the Czech government. Because JSB pellets are manufactured in Czech republic, I believe it is a code to indicate which caliber and class of ammunition it is. I guess rim fire would probably have a different code? And military ammo another code...??? ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 5:25pm
Spent the morning at my range office  sounds funny but its work for me, Luckily I enjoy what I do!Retuned the wildcat to the 10.03gr Knock out slugs. I couldn't get the extreme spread lower then 4, but I think I'm trying to chase perfection and one hole groups. Should be happy with what I achieved, because I guess its not bad at all. Got the group down to 5.5mm center to center, and almost a one hole group. Time to find some more bunnies and continue testing. Next question is, down to what velocity will they still mushroom...? ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 5:27pm
 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 6:03pm
One reason i asked is the two different slugs have 2 very different M codes..... |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 6:08pm
| Hundred less slugs in one tin? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 7:10pm
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Ja, maybe JSB pack their tins according to weight? Heavier projectiles are larger and come in 400 per tin, it is also a slightly taller tin, more space inside. Guess they cant get 500 of the bigger slugs into the smaller tin. Just looking at some .22cal monster pellets, same small tin, 25,39gr pellets, 200 per tin, works out to about just over 5000gr's of lead per "small" tin, regardless of caliber or pellet weight. There is also a price difference, the 10gr/500 tins are $43/tin and the 13.43gr/400 tins are $39 per tin. Works out to 8.6c each for the 10grainers and 9.8c each for the 13grainers, got to pay a bit more for those extra 3.4grains ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 10:13am
| Hey Pete that pellet data base has jsb knock out slugs. Your research would be awesome on it. If you want to add it. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2024 at 4:44pm
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I'll have a look into it, will contribute if I can. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2024 at 5:04pm
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So after re-tuning little Emma for the 10grainers on monday, I took her out to work on monnday night. 12 rabbits and a hare. Collected 5 rabbits and the hare for further investigations. Shots were mostly just over 40yards, with one at 76yards. From the 6 carcasses I retrieved 5 slugs. All of them had deformed to some extent, 3 of them beautifully. The pass through was a side on head shot at 43yards. The hare was a diagonal head shot, through the eye, the brain and slug was recovered under the skin on the back of the head! Thats all of... 7 ? cm? The 76yard shot was base of the back of head of a rabbit, slug recovered in the mouth/cheek just under the skin. That might be even less than 7cm! Amazing. I am blown away by these little slugs, (and they really are little! Flippen tiny when you are trying to load them into a magazine with big sausage fingers!) Their ability to mushroom, dump all of their energy into the target and come to a complete stop with in 10, 8, 5cm... is truly amazing. From a pest control perspective, where I'm shooting on other peoples property it really gives you a little piece of mind knowing your projectile has a 95% chance of not exiting your target, and its going to give it a serious smack too! But at 22FPE, I'll still reserve them for big properties  Little Elly with her 12.4FPE 8.44grain Exacts is still my first choice for small properties. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2024 at 5:07pm
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The hare head shot was top row on right. Bottom left was the head shot on the rabbit.  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2024 at 12:27pm
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Last night I shot a rat at 32yards. Was a neck shot angled into the body. Necropsyed it this morning Slug entered left side of the neck, just behind the head, smashed through the spine completely severing it into two (a rats spine is about the diameter of a pen), top of the lungs and into the abdominal cavity. Recovered perfectly mushroomed. I’d love to know if it expanded before or after it went through the vertebrae, but I guess I’ll never know. It performed perfectly, dumped all of its 22FP of energy into the rat (pole axed it on the spot) and came to a stop in 7 or 8cm. You can’t ask for better performance!   ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2024 at 4:11pm
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Something else interesting to note... I've shot, skinned and dissected a lot of rabbits. I've never seen a flea (or a tick) on a rabbit. First rat Ive dissected and it had a flea... ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2024 at 9:33am
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Which are the 10 grainers in your later posts Pete? JSB or Spyda slugs? Or something else? Your field testing ballistics is really interesting. And your standard shooting is upright with a shooting stick? I'm trying to figure out how to get accurate on my feet without doing some weight training but I have an allergy to gymnasiums  And I'm going to do some shooting sitting and also standing with my camera mono and tripods. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2024 at 9:11pm
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Hi Mark, The 10grainers are JSB Knockouts. The smallest .177 slug Spyda can do is a 13.4gr. Would be good for benches and hunting where over penetration is not an issue. Ja, I walk the paddocks carrying my rifle in one hand and my shooting sticks in the other, and when I find a bunnie I quietly set up the sticks and take the shot while standing. Sitting, or heaven forbid, lying down to shoot rabbits is only good for youngsters and yoga participants, and in paddocks with short grass. I stand and shoot 😂 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 10:07am
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TWO shooting sticks - good on ya that's almost bench rest shooting and sounds like a good idea. But maybe I need to go to the gym and you need to go to stretch classes young man. But seriously, how do you shoot when testing pellets/slugs? Always with the shooting sticks? You sure have no trouble getting decent groups... |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 12:19pm
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😂 When I’m out walking/working I carry one set of shooting sticks. They are called Primos Trigger sticks. It’s a tripod with quick release legs. Nothing better when it comes to quickly and quietly setting up for a shot somewhere out in the field. If I’m testing pellets or slugs on rabbits (for terminal ballistics), out in the field, I’m standing and shooting over the trigger sticks. If I’m testing pellets or slugs for groupings on paper targets, I shoot from a bench rest. I dare say it would be near impossible to shoot a one hole group at 40, standing over shooting sticks 😳 That would be an impressive achievement. Maybe our next challenge??? 🤔😉 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |