The Sub16 comparison.
Printed From: Kiwi Airgunners
Category: Technical
Forum Name: Reviews
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URL: www.kiwiairgunners.co.nz/forum_posts.asp?TID=1065
Printed Date: 20 Sep 2024 at 4:08am
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Topic: The Sub16 comparison.
Posted By: RangerPete
Subject: The Sub16 comparison.
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2024 at 12:21pm
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I’m working on a video doing a comparison of .177, .22 and .25 calibers as far as penetration and energy delivery go, but to be able to compare apples with apples, I’ve set all 3 rifles at just under 16FPE, so it is going to be a “Sub16 comparison”. So far Im testing the .25cal. Took 3 head shots, recovered the carcasses and investigated. Recovered 2 of the 3 pellets, sitting in the brains! Wow. I am impressed! That is exactly the performance a pest controller wants. Delivers all of its energy and does not exit 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Replies:
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 8:27am
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Yea, it'd be interesting to see the different calibres delivering the same energy, and the result. So is it possible that if you had taken the same shot with a .177, would it have passed through? |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 10:16am
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Hi Pete, You've probably seen this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTZGOMSMUk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTZGOMSMUk It may be of interest with your latest investigations? Fascinating stuff!  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 12:40pm
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Pauly, Ja, in my experience .177, even in lower FPE, ice pick their way through a rabbits head even at longer distances. I guess it comes down to resistance, pressure per square mm??? Like compairing pushing a needle through a potato (.177), compacted to a knitting needle (.22), compaired to trying to push your finger through a potato (.25). U can apply the same amount of force to all 3 (sub16FPE) but some will pass through easier and others are going to deliver more energy and require more energy to pass through. I was quite surprised to recover those pellets from the brains, I wasn’t sure what the .25cal would do, was half expecting them to pass through, pleasantly surprised that they didn’t! Myson, interesting video. I have seen it a long time ago, but from bow hunting experiance and also from shooting big heavy charge stopping caliber rifles with 500 or 550gr monolothic bullets, I know that heavier projectiles might start of a bit slower, but the further they go the better their performance gets (compared to lighter weight projectiles) they lose less speed and hit harder at the target. My hunting arrows are 750gr!!! Comparatively slow, but they have so much inertia, they stop for nothing and go stright through everything 😂😂😂 To translate that into what I’m compairing with these 3 calibers, they all leave the mussel with just under 16FPE, the .177 is doing 920 fps, the .25 is doing 519fps, but at 100y the .177 is down to 4.2FPE, and the .25 still has 7.8FPE . Not quite double, but close enough 😳 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 12:50pm
| So you going off muzzle energy? Or are you going to set target for thier fpe being the same at target? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 1:13pm
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No. Too complicated to get rabbits to stand sill at such specific distances. I’ve taken a more practical and more “commonly encounter by hunters” approach. Ive got the 3 rifles set up as follows .177 15.9FPE, .22 15.6FPE and .25 15.9FPE at the muzzle. To get 3 rifles set up with their preferred pellet, and tuned to be accurate, while all being with in 0.3FPE of each other is a feat in its self. I’m then going to try and document, recover and autopsy 3 head shots and 3 chest shots with each caliber. Planning to try get one head shot and one chest shot with each caliber at 30ish, 40ish and 50ish yards, then comlpair how many FPE each had at the actual distance the shot ended up being taken (according to a reputable balistic calculator) and what its terminal performance was. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 5:36pm
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Pete - There's a chap called Gary Wain in the Airgun World magazine who has completed countless trials on pellet penetration / trajectories that you might like to read up on..... He talks a lot about Sectional Density, Ballistic Coefficients, etc... and has done some very interesting comparisons on many different types of pellets, at various ranges, in various conditions, etc... He uses everything from pig heads to ballistic gels / clays - with chronographs at muzzle and target - to clarify pellet ballistics and performance. Excellent stuff! Unfortunately, he does not appear to be on Youtube so you'll need to source some of these magazines if you're interested in reviewing his articles. I have a pile here that you are welcome to when you're next passing through the Manawatu. He's well worth a read if you haven't come across him before? PM me if ever you're coming down this way.... PS: Overall, after 2 years of trials, he concluded that the standard dome-shaped diabolo pellets in any calibre are the most effective at accuracy and energy transfer for hunters. I think he now is doing similar work with slugs... but I've stopped my subscription because of recurring shipping delivery failures between UK and NZ.  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 7:19pm
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Hi Myson, I'll look him up. His work sounds very interesting. I love terminal ballistics, I could study it like a science, just wish I could get someone to pay me for doing it...  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 7:22pm
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I just ran his name. A lot of stuff came up. He's still part air magazine i think it was |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2024 at 12:32pm
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Holy moly... fricken cats!!!! You have no idea how many cats I see out there at night. Nothing can hide from the thermal. If it's in plain sight of my eye, i.e. not hiding behind something, I can see it. I can see a mouse at 100m, which you wouldnt be able to do in broad day light with the naked eye, too far and too small, but with the thermal at night I'll see it. I see cats out there every night. And i'm getting sick and tired of them stealing my rabbits that I collect and leave somewhere so I can pick them up later on my way out for necropsys to workout pellet performance and terminal ballistics. Shoot 15 rabbis, recover maybe 3 or 4 (selective depending on shot distance, shot angle, location of rabbit, ease of recovery in the dark, electric fences etc),after losses to cats I might get 1 or 2 home. Ive had cats come in and steal the carcass before I could even get to it to recover it. The head shots are better because the rabbit drops right there, silently. The heart lung shots attract cats, the distress calls and death shreak are like a dinner bell to a cat. If there is a cat with in 50m of a dying rabbit it will come running. Dying pigeons attract cats the same way. Ive even had carcasses eaten in the back of my UTE. Fricken cats. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2024 at 12:48pm
| Get a live trap and throw a rabbit in. If they are that use to stealing your rabbits they will go in. Hang the rest above it. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2024 at 3:15pm
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Regarding wild cats Pete, I used to go hunting pheasants in the forests near Napier during the season. I flushed so many wild cats during the first two years over there, I put my shotgun away and took a silenced Ruger M77 .223 rifle instead on my third year. It's 1-in-9 twist barrel allowed me to shoot 68gr Hornady Match rounds extremely accurately out to 800yds. That season, we shot 61 cats (!) in one week in various forests over there!!!! And that was without NV gear! We just piled up rabbits and possums in various spots and snipered 'em from 100-200yds - great fun! But I reckon, if we'd had NV gear, our total would have been 100+! I've never seen so many wild cats in all my life. I guess the warmer drier weather over there - and lots of tucker (Quail, Pheasants, Rabbits, etc) - allowed them to breed successfully? Keep knocking 'em down mate! They're a menace.... ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2024 at 4:13pm
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Wow Myson, that’s a lot of cats, good work! The problem I have is that I’m always on other peoples property when I’m out culling rabbits at night. And the very vast majority of my clients don’t want cats shot on their properties, either because they have cats them selves, or because they are worried about the neighbours cats… 🤔 I firmly believe that every rule that applies to owning a dog in NZ should also apply to owning a cat, which includes licensing it, wearing a collar and a bell, and containing it with in your own property. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 6:57am
Totally agree Pete! 
Yeah - you're in a tricky situation, being on others' property and probably not too far from neighbours or town? I've shot two more on local farms this year with my beloved S510. All in the late evening as they start their nightly prowl. It's time to start wall-mounting their heads, methinks?!!!!  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2024 at 2:38pm
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Some interesting results comming out of this sub 16FPE comparison. Not just from the terminal ballistics side, but from other things I’ve been noticing like the correlation of pellet velocity’s and rabbit reaction times to the shot… From watching many video replays of shots, it seems past a certain distance a faster pellet is preferable, slower pellets give the rabbit the opportunity to hear the shot and react before the pellet gets there!!! Obviously other factors like ambient noise and wind direction will influence it, but on the still, quiet nights when I do most of my culling I’ve decided that regardless of projectile caliber or weight, if I’m shooting out past 40yards I want my muzzle velocity higher than 700fps. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |