The Sub16 comparison.
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Topic: The Sub16 comparison.
Posted By: RangerPete
Subject: The Sub16 comparison.
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2024 at 7:21am
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I’m working on a video doing a comparison of .177, .22 and .25 calibers as far as penetration and energy delivery go, but to be able to compare apples with apples, I’ve set all 3 rifles at just under 16FPE, so it is going to be a “Sub16 comparison”. So far Im testing the .25cal. Took 3 head shots, recovered the carcasses and investigated. Recovered 2 of the 3 pellets, sitting in the brains! Wow. I am impressed! That is exactly the performance a pest controller wants. Delivers all of its energy and does not exit 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Replies:
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 3:27am
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Yea, it'd be interesting to see the different calibres delivering the same energy, and the result. So is it possible that if you had taken the same shot with a .177, would it have passed through? |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 5:16am
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Hi Pete, You've probably seen this?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTZGOMSMUk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTZGOMSMUk It may be of interest with your latest investigations? Fascinating stuff!  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 7:40am
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Pauly, Ja, in my experience .177, even in lower FPE, ice pick their way through a rabbits head even at longer distances. I guess it comes down to resistance, pressure per square mm??? Like compairing pushing a needle through a potato (.177), compacted to a knitting needle (.22), compaired to trying to push your finger through a potato (.25). U can apply the same amount of force to all 3 (sub16FPE) but some will pass through easier and others are going to deliver more energy and require more energy to pass through. I was quite surprised to recover those pellets from the brains, I wasn’t sure what the .25cal would do, was half expecting them to pass through, pleasantly surprised that they didn’t! Myson, interesting video. I have seen it a long time ago, but from bow hunting experiance and also from shooting big heavy charge stopping caliber rifles with 500 or 550gr monolothic bullets, I know that heavier projectiles might start of a bit slower, but the further they go the better their performance gets (compared to lighter weight projectiles) they lose less speed and hit harder at the target. My hunting arrows are 750gr!!! Comparatively slow, but they have so much inertia, they stop for nothing and go stright through everything 😂😂😂 To translate that into what I’m compairing with these 3 calibers, they all leave the mussel with just under 16FPE, the .177 is doing 920 fps, the .25 is doing 519fps, but at 100y the .177 is down to 4.2FPE, and the .25 still has 7.8FPE . Not quite double, but close enough 😳 ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 7:50am
| So you going off muzzle energy? Or are you going to set target for thier fpe being the same at target? |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 8:13am
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No. Too complicated to get rabbits to stand sill at such specific distances. I’ve taken a more practical and more “commonly encounter by hunters” approach. Ive got the 3 rifles set up as follows .177 15.9FPE, .22 15.6FPE and .25 15.9FPE at the muzzle. To get 3 rifles set up with their preferred pellet, and tuned to be accurate, while all being with in 0.3FPE of each other is a feat in its self. I’m then going to try and document, recover and autopsy 3 head shots and 3 chest shots with each caliber. Planning to try get one head shot and one chest shot with each caliber at 30ish, 40ish and 50ish yards, then comlpair how many FPE each had at the actual distance the shot ended up being taken (according to a reputable balistic calculator) and what its terminal performance was. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 12:36pm
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Pete - There's a chap called Gary Wain in the Airgun World magazine who has completed countless trials on pellet penetration / trajectories that you might like to read up on..... He talks a lot about Sectional Density, Ballistic Coefficients, etc... and has done some very interesting comparisons on many different types of pellets, at various ranges, in various conditions, etc... He uses everything from pig heads to ballistic gels / clays - with chronographs at muzzle and target - to clarify pellet ballistics and performance. Excellent stuff! Unfortunately, he does not appear to be on Youtube so you'll need to source some of these magazines if you're interested in reviewing his articles. I have a pile here that you are welcome to when you're next passing through the Manawatu. He's well worth a read if you haven't come across him before? PM me if ever you're coming down this way.... PS: Overall, after 2 years of trials, he concluded that the standard dome-shaped diabolo pellets in any calibre are the most effective at accuracy and energy transfer for hunters. I think he now is doing similar work with slugs... but I've stopped my subscription because of recurring shipping delivery failures between UK and NZ.  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 2:19pm
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Hi Myson, I'll look him up. His work sounds very interesting. I love terminal ballistics, I could study it like a science, just wish I could get someone to pay me for doing it...  ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2024 at 2:22pm
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I just ran his name. A lot of stuff came up. He's still part air magazine i think it was |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 7:32am
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Holy moly... fricken cats!!!! You have no idea how many cats I see out there at night. Nothing can hide from the thermal. If it's in plain sight of my eye, i.e. not hiding behind something, I can see it. I can see a mouse at 100m, which you wouldnt be able to do in broad day light with the naked eye, too far and too small, but with the thermal at night I'll see it. I see cats out there every night. And i'm getting sick and tired of them stealing my rabbits that I collect and leave somewhere so I can pick them up later on my way out for necropsys to workout pellet performance and terminal ballistics. Shoot 15 rabbis, recover maybe 3 or 4 (selective depending on shot distance, shot angle, location of rabbit, ease of recovery in the dark, electric fences etc),after losses to cats I might get 1 or 2 home. Ive had cats come in and steal the carcass before I could even get to it to recover it. The head shots are better because the rabbit drops right there, silently. The heart lung shots attract cats, the distress calls and death shreak are like a dinner bell to a cat. If there is a cat with in 50m of a dying rabbit it will come running. Dying pigeons attract cats the same way. Ive even had carcasses eaten in the back of my UTE. Fricken cats. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 7:48am
| Get a live trap and throw a rabbit in. If they are that use to stealing your rabbits they will go in. Hang the rest above it. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 10:15am
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Regarding wild cats Pete, I used to go hunting pheasants in the forests near Napier during the season. I flushed so many wild cats during the first two years over there, I put my shotgun away and took a silenced Ruger M77 .223 rifle instead on my third year. It's 1-in-9 twist barrel allowed me to shoot 68gr Hornady Match rounds extremely accurately out to 800yds. That season, we shot 61 cats (!) in one week in various forests over there!!!! And that was without NV gear! We just piled up rabbits and possums in various spots and snipered 'em from 100-200yds - great fun! But I reckon, if we'd had NV gear, our total would have been 100+! I've never seen so many wild cats in all my life. I guess the warmer drier weather over there - and lots of tucker (Quail, Pheasants, Rabbits, etc) - allowed them to breed successfully? Keep knocking 'em down mate! They're a menace.... ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 11:13am
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Wow Myson, that’s a lot of cats, good work! The problem I have is that I’m always on other peoples property when I’m out culling rabbits at night. And the very vast majority of my clients don’t want cats shot on their properties, either because they have cats them selves, or because they are worried about the neighbours cats… 🤔 I firmly believe that every rule that applies to owning a dog in NZ should also apply to owning a cat, which includes licensing it, wearing a collar and a bell, and containing it with in your own property. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Myson
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2024 at 1:57am
Totally agree Pete! 
Yeah - you're in a tricky situation, being on others' property and probably not too far from neighbours or town? I've shot two more on local farms this year with my beloved S510. All in the late evening as they start their nightly prowl. It's time to start wall-mounting their heads, methinks?!!!!  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2024 at 9:38am
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Some interesting results comming out of this sub 16FPE comparison. Not just from the terminal ballistics side, but from other things I’ve been noticing like the correlation of pellet velocity’s and rabbit reaction times to the shot… From watching many video replays of shots, it seems past a certain distance a faster pellet is preferable, slower pellets give the rabbit the opportunity to hear the shot and react before the pellet gets there!!! Obviously other factors like ambient noise and wind direction will influence it, but on the still, quiet nights when I do most of my culling I’ve decided that regardless of projectile caliber or weight, if I’m shooting out past 40yards I want my muzzle velocity higher than 700fps. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 10:06am
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Finally finished and uploaded The Sub 16 FPE Comparison. Its a long video but I go into quite a bit of detail comparing the pellet penetration and performance of 3 calibers, all set to Sub16FPE. No testing on water mellons or ballistic gel, this is all real world rests on small game. Its up on my Youtube channel now @precisionpellet Let me know your thoughts. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 11:01am
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Very interesting. Well put together. Hope you got that age restricted, or just on site, don't know if utube will leave it up to long if not. Watching the reaction of rabbits ducking pellets, and how accurately they bent under or moved to avoid pellet, I would suggest that maybe you should set up somewhere safe and listen to the sound of a pellet going past ( ive heard them before when standing to one side of a target at 100m) you will hear them as they approach and pass. It looks to me like they responding directly to the pellet. They seem to be actively avoiding the pellet not just responding to sound of gun.Though the rifle sound may start the reaction. Great video. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2024 at 2:09pm
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Does have me curious as well, as too if the hades with its fancy head actually makes a louder sound cutting through the air. The two rabbits at the end with the .22 definitely had a much more noticable duck down with one actually diving onto its front legs and then dropping its body even lower to avoid pellet. Really good too see it on film. Really was a great video, cheers for taking the time to film it all, shame there arnt more videos done as well on the web. |
Posted By: JasonEdward
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2024 at 8:09am
| Excellent! Nice work Pete! Thanks for this very field useful real world video. Classic work from you Pete with excellent attention to detail. And I now understand why you've done a lot of work with slugs...and how valuable the time taken for autopsies really is. Kruza, also classic is your analysing animal behaviour - I too was trying to figure out what was going on in those bunny brains. It was almost like they heard the shot -giving a WTF reaction with an instinct to get low then perhaps perceiving the pellet coming resulting in a leap and bolt away from the projectile. And your hands on long range target research is also great. Pete and Kruza, you guys should get together and write a bunny book. You both come from different angles to some very interesting observations. Your threads are my favourites - "You gotta be out there..." for game observation and various threads from Pete about hands on field ballistics including the excellent "JSB Knockout" thread and your efforts to reduce stray pellets/slugs from fully penetrating animals is a credit to you given it means better and safer service for your clients. Thanks again guys for your inspiring information from a would be bunny shooter. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2024 at 8:53am
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If you go out to shoot rabbits, you are a rabbit shooter jason. Skill level has nought to do with it. Its the action of doing it. Im hoping you and others will one day start putting up more shooting experiences. All hunting adventures are great, especially those that show the reality of shooting. People who are getting into it often can provide information and ask questions that are valuable to ppl who are in the same position, notice or do things that others may not have. Same with pellet testing and scopes,rifle info etc. Pete's work on pellets has been great (God knows i couldn't be bothered doing that sort of detailed tracking of a pellet through a rabbit. (I get over just skinning them)and adds another layer of understanding to what ive formed on actual real life senario, which i hold above any another type. Example would be the .22 hares shot in his video. From that the question of does a hades makes a louder sound cutting through air than a strait deablo head is something im now curious about. Do it,write about it, you never know who will gleen info out of it Jason. Pete you going to do slugs? Even though i cant use them in my springer that would be really interested in that too. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2024 at 3:10pm
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Thanks guys. Kruza, I’m (still) working on similar review of the 10gr knock out slugs. I’ve done all the shooting, just need to find the time to do all the editing and put it together. It’s what I’m going to work on next. U guys got bits and pieces of it as it was slowly happening when I found interesting things and posted them here. U certainly could shoot slugs in springers, there are plenty of guys in the UK that are doing it, and they are sub12. Just choose a “light” weight slug and give it a try. You won’t get blistering speeds of course, and you probably won’t get the extreme expansions and energy dumps that come from high speeds, but… if u find a slug that is accurate in your rifle, it might have a slightly lower muzzle velocity than a similar weight pellet, but, it is still going to out perform that pellet a distances past 50. Because of its slug shape it is going to retain more speed, be less effected by wind and will still hit harder than that pellet at distance. U just need to try a few and find one that shoots well out of your springer. With regards to the pellet noise, I think it is possible that the hades, or any similar “not smooth” pellet could make more noise then a smooth round head. From my years of shooting competitive archery and bow hunting, I can tell you that all arrows make noise while flying down range. Arrows with solid one piece broad heads are the “quietest”. Broad heads that have cut outs and vents to save weight and make them lighter, whistle loudly down range in flight!!! Don’t ask me how I know that. However, I still believe with slow pellets, the sound of the rifle is still what they react to. Over 60yards, the sound of the rifle (hammer hitting valve) leaves the rifle technically before the pellet even leaves the muzzle. The rifle sound travels to the rabbit at 1100 odd fps, and dosent slow down. If the pellet is doing 550fps (ish) at the muzzel, (half the speed), and starts slowing down immediately. The sound of the rifle has reached the rabbits before the pellets have even reached half way. The rabbits may well hear the pellets in flight, but they heard the rifle first. Just my 2cents worth. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2024 at 4:50pm
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Nah I have no interest in slugs. My springer doesnt need the extra friction to fight against. They wont expand at power i have. I prefure arc for reasons ive stated before on site. I have watched many reviews on slugs and see no advantages in my rifle. |
Posted By: Pauly5
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 2:43am
| I've been doing a bit of paid rabbit work at a cemetery lately and have shot rabbits at 60 -80 and the odd 100m with pellets, but as the rabbits are more weary, the ranges are increasing, so I am now considering slugs again as I think this is the purpose they hold, for the longer ranges. Power is not an issue, it's battling wind at longer ranges. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2024 at 2:31pm
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Agreed Pauly. Slugs are just in a different league at longer distances. I was using the little JSB 10gr Knock Outs again last Friday night. Man they are tiny! I can load a full mag of 8.44gr JSB's in to the Air Arms 10shot mag, in total darkness, just by feel, no problem. But there is no possible way I could load those 10gr Knock outs into an FX mag in the dark. They are just too small to feel and know which way they are facing. They are tiny! Anyway, I found a possum walking away from me in knee high grass, at 127yards. It wasn't presenting much of a shot but it was about to disappear completely into the grass so I took the shot. I connected with it, but it wasn't DRT, it went down in the grass and stayed put which gave me the opportunity to half the distance and put the next shot into its brain. One less pest. There is no way I would have been able to anchor a possum at 127yards with a 10gr pellet. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: kruzaroad
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 5:02am
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Hey pete can you put up the link here for you slug video when you put it up? I recently got rid of utube off my phone and dont get the notification any more. |
Posted By: RangerPete
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2024 at 1:08pm
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No Prob, should be in a few days. ------------- Walk quietly, but carry a big stick. |