Lobbying for change |
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Reissue
Member Joined: 06 Jul 2024 Location: Hawkes Bay Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
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Posted: 06 Jul 2024 at 12:34pm |
Hello New user sorry if this is abit much for my first post. With the upcoming review of the Arms Act by the Act Party, I believe it's an opportune time for us to come together and make our voices heard. The Goal: I propose that we, as a collective group of air rifle enthusiasts and industry professionals, submit a unified proposal to the government, advocating for changes to air rifle legislation. Specifically, I'd like to see PCP air rifles legalized for use without a Firearms License (FAL), with a potential limit on the Foot-Pound of Energy (FPE) to ensure safe and responsible use. Rationale: As many of us know, air rifles are an effective tool for pest control in rural communities, helping to manage feral cat and possum populations that threaten our native wildlife. Key Points to Consider: PCP air rifles for pest control without FAL FPE limit to ensure safe use (e.g., sufficient to humanely dispatch feral cats and possums) Environmental benefits of air rifle use in rural communities Industry and enthusiast unity in advocating for change Sorry if this has already been talking about I took a look around the forum and couldn't see anything feel free to add on to this.
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kruzaroad
Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Online Posts: 2283 |
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12fpe for pcp will probly also get a 12fpe limit on springers.
As I have no interest in pcps it would have to be worded so it dropped the pcp fpe and not affect springers. I dont want to have to fork out for a fal to own a 16fpe springer. Bit over all would support it. |
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RangerPete
Senior Member Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Cambridge. Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Firstly, it’s a bit odd that you are an air gun enthusiast but your first post is trying to rally support of a political nature… 🤔
Secondly, proposing a FPE limit for licence free pcp ownership is not going to ensure safe and responsible use of anything by anyone. Infact, no rule or regulation you can impose on people, or remove from any existing legislation, is going to ensure people will suddenly begin to practise the safe and responsible use of firearms. Thirdly, having done a fair amount of pest control myself using PCP’s, my opinion of the amount of FPE required to humanely kill/cull ferral cats and possums, is well above the “safe for every guy and his dog to freely own” level and should certainly come with the responsibility of a firearms licence. LESS then 12 FPE is fine for mice, rats, sparrows, pigeons, and small game up to rabbit size, but possums and cats are a lot bigger with much heavier bone structure then rabbits, and to despatch them cleanly (unless you have the muzzle close to the back of their head) either requires greater FPE or exceptional marksmanship. The crazy part is that at the moment “every guy and his dog” CAN freely own a “greater then 12FPE” air rifle, even ones with a 10 shot magazine, all you need to be is over 18, they are called springers and they can humanely dispatch possums and cats just as well as any PCP if the shooter is capable. The part of the equation that needs regulating is unfortunately the part that is very difficult to regulate, the ethics, accuracy, saftey and gun manners of the user. That’s where mentorship programs should come in. Welcome to the forum. |
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Walk quietly, but carry a big stick.
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Myson
Senior Member Joined: 06 Mar 2016 Location: Feilding Status: Offline Posts: 182 |
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I completely agree with Pete.
If you have a Firearms Licence for PCP's, you can also buy and use rimfire and centrefire calibres that are much more powerful than PCP's. So... limiting PCP power is pointless! Accurate longer range air rifle shooting also requires PCP's with plenty of FPE. Limiting them would impact our sport further. As we have far too many limitations on our beloved sport already, why would you want to restrict us any further?!!! I find this suggestion ill informed and very odd! Having a Firearms Licence for PCP's is a good thing. Use a Springer if you don't like it! |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7jVyBfFqE
Air Arms S510 US .22 Air Arms S410 .22 Weihrauch HW97KT .177 Weihrauch HW95 .177 |
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kruzaroad
Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Online Posts: 2283 |
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Lmao isn't it usually ppl go to pcp cause they don't like springers? Not visa versa.
I don't think he's sujesting that all pcps are limited to 12fpe, but like England you don't need a fal for anything under 12fpe. Fal for anything over 12fpe. So it won't affect your guns if you have mag loading multiple shot, high power pcp. I think the under 12 fpe without a fal in pcp would open up the sport of pcp shooting to many and pest control. They are the upgrade from springers for hunting for many. People have the right to control pests. Poms have proved 12fpe is enough for rabbits out to 100m. Still wouldn't like my single shot, that have to recock every shot springer to lose it's extra few fpe over 12fpe, but if it opens up the amount of pest critters shot due people being able to access easy to shoot accurate low powered guns, I'm for it. Killing things isn't a sport. We have a problem with pest critters. Any shooter taking pest numbers down is better than nothing. Target shooting is a sport. Under 12 fpe will open that sport up. Bring in new blood and give people a chance to explore the sport before deciding if they want to spend all that money on a fal before being able to purchase a pcp to participate. |
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J-S
Senior Member Joined: 19 Oct 2014 Location: Auckland Status: Offline Posts: 425 |
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So, I get that your suggesting opening up sub12FPE PCPs to those of legal age to own spring air rifles. But I think the only thing that would do would implement a blanket 12fpe airgun law for all air rifles - spring & pcp like UK. The UK is a very different market, this will just lead to cats walking around with missing eyes, people finding possums bleeding to death because people dont understand the power required for efficient kill I dont really want that, so for that reason i'm out.. |
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J S Airguns
Air Arms TX200('s) Theoben Sirocco HW77 FWB 300s Webley Patriot One or two others... Current projects: Too many.. |
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Reissue
Member Joined: 06 Jul 2024 Location: Hawkes Bay Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
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Correct this is what I was more thinking about but perhaps raised about a 12fpe limit owing to larger pests being here perhaps more like 25-35fpe. One would hope a restriction on springers would not be put in place at the same time.
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BC_Clark
Member Joined: 15 Feb 2024 Location: Auckland Status: Offline Posts: 6 |
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A big problem with imposing energy limit is that energy is not a reliable measure of how deadly an airgun is. .177 springers have killed people but 12 ft-lb in 9 mm may not even penetrate. Deadliness comes about from penetrating deep enough to reach vital areas. Penetration is proportional to the product of momentum and sectional density. Not energy. High velocity with low mass is an expensive way to create momentum, that's why 12 ft-lbs arrow will out-penetrate a 12 ft-lbs .22 pellet, despite similar diameter. We do not see PCP pistol crime. We see thugs using hammers, or else illegal firearms. PCP pistols are living proof that there is no requirement to restrict PCP power limits. |
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KiwiTR6
Senior Member Joined: 03 Nov 2022 Location: Stratford Status: Offline Posts: 281 |
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My 2 cents worth... My view is that the current system is, in general terms, fit for purpose - although I don't agree with the compulsory registration of individual guns due to potential for data breaches (probably more of an issue for the powder burner owners than air gunners) and would also like to see administration of the regulations undertaken by an independent authority. I don't see that the introduction of a 12ftlb limit for unlicensed gun owners would achieve anything of real value but would instead give rise to confusion, potential gun tampering and inconvenience to owners by way of compliance checks to ensure that the 12ftlb limit isn't exceeded. I believe that restricting PCP rifle ownership to licensed gun owners was a sensible move as they are potentially every bit as lethal as a normal firearm. Our system, with intensive background checks and firearms training processes, goes a long way to ensuring that licensed owners are sensible and trustworthy individuals. Springers and CO2 guns should be left as they are currently. The mechanical limitations of their designs in terms of outright power negates the need to impose an arbitrary limit and the introduction of even more more legislation and regulations to ensure compliance. The real problem for the airgun industry is the up-front cost. Even the cheap PCPs are expensive in relative terms, as are the good quality springers. I don't see that this is likely to change and so making sub-12ftlb PCPs available to the general public isn't going to fix that problem. Edited by KiwiTR6 - 08 Jul 2024 at 9:22pm |
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FX Wildcat MK111 BT Sniper .25
FX Dreamline Classic .22 Diana Outlaw .22 Cometa Fenix 400 .177 Weihrauch HW50 .177 Crosman 2240 PCP Custom .22 Crosman 2250 PCP Custom .22 Brocock Grand Prix .22 |
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Reissue
Member Joined: 06 Jul 2024 Location: Hawkes Bay Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
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Good post here is my basic understanding: Energy vs. Momentum and Sectional Density: Energy (ft-lbs or Joules): Measures the capacity to do work. In ballistics, it gives an idea of potential damage, but it does not directly translate to penetration or lethality. Momentum (kg·m/s): Product of mass and velocity. Higher momentum means the projectile can maintain its velocity longer when encountering resistance, aiding penetration. Sectional Density: Ratio of mass to cross-sectional area. Higher sectional density means a projectile can penetrate deeper as it concentrates more force on a smaller area. Penetration Dynamics: High Energy, Low Mass (e.g., .22 pellet): These projectiles travel fast but may fragment or lose energy quickly upon impact, reducing penetration. Lower Energy, High Mass (e.g., arrow): These projectiles move slower but maintain momentum better, allowing deeper penetration due to their higher sectional density and sustained force application. |
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