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Paintball to .22 pellet conversion.

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dvlnme View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvlnme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2020 at 4:38am
getting the timing right is big deal with semi autos,breech really needs stay closed until pellet gas either just left barrel or is about to and that may have to depend one the strength of bolt return spring in this design,its a balancing act if trigger dosnt have a disconnector mechanism the gun will go full auto,the disconnector should catch hammer on rebound and then prevent hammer from recontacting the hammer and opening valve again,hammer bounce is a problem with most pcp and co2 guns,not really an issue with a hand operated bolt as no more pellets being feed to breech,so just wastes propellent etc,with a semi auto the dissconnector catchs hammer and holds it even when trigger is still pulled back from first shot,when trigger is released to fire next shot it reengages the the hammer sear to fire next shot,a full auto sear the dissconnector between hammer and trigger is over ridden when trigger is pulled this allows the action to continue functioning on full auto as long as trigger is pulled and there is ammo in the mag,just a reminder that full auto airguns are illegal in nz.
 to explain a lttle clearer a dissconnector is a mechanical part of a trigger that operates independantly of the actual trigger that catchs and holds a hammer in its full cocked position after being cocked by th bolt reciplicating to the rear,and hold hammer in full cock notch until trigger is released when trigger then engages the true full cock notch,holds it there until trigger is pulled again to fire next shot,all semi autos have some form of dissconnector in the trigger,getting this right and to function correctly maybe your biggest head ache for you semi auto co2 guns,as for blow back cycling the action using unused co2,thats still in barrel ,thats another very different issue,most semi auto bb guns use some form of blow back,most semi auto pellet guns are use some form of blow back to recock the action but neither are true semi autos in the true sense as they dont chamber a bb or pellet but fire them directly from their mags,this is very different to what you are thinking about,been toying with the concept of true semi auto pcp guns for some time,just for the hell of it,it can be done as fx and others have proven,but its not quiet as simple as it may seem,there are two bassic ways to go about this,one,the most common used for rifles is to bleed co2/hpa from barrel usually at muzzle and redirect it to cycle bolt and action,the other way is to use one the various ways of delaying the breech from opening until pellet is about to leave barrel and the use this residual co2 or hpa to cycle the action and load another pellet on return stoke of the bolt,thelater system is the only practical way to doso in a pistol as it operstes essentually to a recoil operated semi auto pistol,but without using recoil as airguns have no usable recoil,second world war german belt feed machine guns work on this delayed breech opening system as do several modern machine gus,its simple and absolutly reliable,bit long winded but interesting topic for sure,nobody yet has produced a truely practical semi auto pcp pistol as those acailable are simply cut down semi auto pcp rifles minus their buttstocks,sawn off rifles essentually,too big and heavy to be practical pistols as sawn off rifles usually are,there have been several true semi auto co2 handguns the old crosman 600 being one the first and still a goody today if you can find one,the fun of messing around with different co2 projects is there lot potentual for all sorts projects,dont give up on your paintball projects if nothing else they will keep you occupied and out of the pub eh!!
 cheers mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2020 at 6:42am
Originally posted by dvlnme dvlnme wrote:

the trick with co2 is that its pointless to have more co2 getting into the system than can expand behind the pellet leaves the barrel,its a case of more co2 than the gun can effectivly use to propel the pellets from the barrel,more co2 dosnt mean neccessarly mean more power,co2 runs at 900/1100 psi depending on temp,and dosnt increase past these pressures,it propells the pellet by expanding from liquid to a gas and its this expanding to a gas thats the propellent at a constant pressure,once the liquid has expanded to the gas it wont expand anymore,the idea is to get as close as possible to the amount of gas that will completly fill the barrel behind the pellet when it leaves the barrel,no more no less,its really all about making the most efficent use of this amount of expanding gas,the rest of it is getting the valve right,opening up and free flowing the valve,allows the liquid/gas flow thru that valve as fast and freely as possible into the barrel,co2 is thicker than air and needs to transition from a liquid to a gas,liquid co2 has a constant pressure so is esentually self regulating,you then need to calculate how far and how long the valve needs to be open to allow the set amount of co2 thru the valve to reach the performance its capble of giving you realtive to barrel length and caliber,all this technical sh*t is the theory of how it should work but you can figure most it out by experimenting with the valve,hammer spring tensions and a bit of patience like most of us have done.all part the fun and keeps you outa the pub figuring it all out eh!!
 cheers mike


Cheers! A lot to lear and certainly fun playing...

I did have another idea, but tollerances may be a little tight to make successfully, and dont know if it would work well anyway...
But using the semi - auto blowback system + a self indexing .22 mag and a slim probe like a crosman 2250 to feed the pellets and seal the breach to make a semi-auto .22.

Gas is wasted on the blowback, so it wouldnt be high power, but should be ok for a pistol..

Just ideas for now


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dvlnme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 3:52am
the trick with co2 is that its pointless to have more co2 getting into the system than can expand behind the pellet leaves the barrel,its a case of more co2 than the gun can effectivly use to propel the pellets from the barrel,more co2 dosnt mean neccessarly mean more power,co2 runs at 900/1100 psi depending on temp,and dosnt increase past these pressures,it propells the pellet by expanding from liquid to a gas and its this expanding to a gas thats the propellent at a constant pressure,once the liquid has expanded to the gas it wont expand anymore,the idea is to get as close as possible to the amount of gas that will completly fill the barrel behind the pellet when it leaves the barrel,no more no less,its really all about making the most efficent use of this amount of expanding gas,the rest of it is getting the valve right,opening up and free flowing the valve,allows the liquid/gas flow thru that valve as fast and freely as possible into the barrel,co2 is thicker than air and needs to transition from a liquid to a gas,liquid co2 has a constant pressure so is esentually self regulating,you then need to calculate how far and how long the valve needs to be open to allow the set amount of co2 thru the valve to reach the performance its capble of giving you realtive to barrel length and caliber,all this technical sh*t is the theory of how it should work but you can figure most it out by experimenting with the valve,hammer spring tensions and a bit of patience like most of us have done.all part the fun and keeps you outa the pub figuring it all out eh!!
 cheers mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 7:01am
Update.. nothing on this one..
BUT, i did get a couple more cheap paintball guns of Trademe to hatch some more evil plans. Both are electric triggers which a very light compared to the current mechanical.

Current project has a long bolt insert which acts as a transfer port of around 70mm. Is this wasted space for gas expansion, or does it aid in power?

The next project may be a pistol version; if I make the barrel transfer port directly over the valve (like a crosman 2250), should this provide better use of the gas?
(Im a springer fan at heart so this gas stuff is a bit less known).

Below is a quick preview idea of project number 2:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 9:25am
Originally posted by dvlnme dvlnme wrote:

if using lot gas and not getting better performance,you may need to open up valve and free flow it a little to let gas flow faster thru valve,otherwise maybe still letting gas flow thru valve after pellet has left barrel,ideally gas should be just enuf to expand enuf to fill barrel up to time pellets about to exit barrel.any more gas is just wasting gas,really all about timing,co2 is thicker and heavier than hpa and runs some where in the 900psi range,more co2 dosnt necessarly mean more power,bassiaclly once co2 has expanded to fill barrel behind projectile it wont produce any more power,and just vent any remaining gas to no effect once projectile has left barrel,as co2 relys on expansion under pressure to expell the projectile,once it has no where to continue to expand,it cant continue to produce pressure behind the projectile,so is just vented and wasted bassically,bit long winded explaination but essentually how co2 works.
 cheers mike

Cheers! Nicely explained indeed. 
I think another issue with the test is that the paintball bolt is a 14mm cavity, so i guess once the valve shuts the gas is expanding in there as well as down the barrel?? 

Plan is the probe insert which will act as a narrow transfer port on 3-4mm, blasting directly behind the pellet... parts request is in the queue for lathe time with a certain tuner.

Once complete I can play with increasing valve volume, more springs etc etc.. 

Another update, I just picked up another cheap paintball marker for future project; this one has an electronic trigger that is super light compared to the current mechanical job.. 
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Air Arms TX200('s)
Theoben Sirocco
HW77
FWB 300s
Webley Patriot
One or two others...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shaqa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 1:16pm
Nicely explained
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvlnme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 11:56am
if using lot gas and not getting better performance,you may need to open up valve and free flow it a little to let gas flow faster thru valve,otherwise maybe still letting gas flow thru valve after pellet has left barrel,ideally gas should be just enuf to expand enuf to fill barrel up to time pellets about to exit barrel.any more gas is just wasting gas,really all about timing,co2 is thicker and heavier than hpa and runs some where in the 900psi range,more co2 dosnt necessarly mean more power,bassiaclly once co2 has expanded to fill barrel behind projectile it wont produce any more power,and just vent any remaining gas to no effect once projectile has left barrel,as co2 relys on expansion under pressure to expell the projectile,once it has no where to continue to expand,it cant continue to produce pressure behind the projectile,so is just vented and wasted bassically,bit long winded explaination but essentually how co2 works.
 cheers mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2020 at 5:43am
Update: I trialled shooting loading a pellet into the barrel, then orings on the breech end of the barrel securing into the paintball bolt. This gave me a huge 1.8fpe!! and 180-230fps

So i did a trial with spring replacements based on assumption the valve is not being opened fully.
1) the short firm spring was replaced with a long firm spring - no free flight and minimal pre-load to try and avoid bounce
2) Conical soft valve pin spring was replace with a bodge job made from the firm spring - idea is the strong hammer spring opens it up fully, and a strong valve pin spring returns closed and resists bounce. 

It worked! not fully where i want it but it is now 7.8fpe, and much louder so a good amount of gas used.
The valve pin spring bent the last couple of coils where it was heated and widened to fit the seat to keep it centre - I have ordered more springs  (to try in a month when they arrive in a month from AliExpress) and will make a spring guide of sorts, to keep the spring seated centre without needing to be conical shape.


(Silver Springs are the standard paintball jobbies)

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Air Arms TX200('s)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvlnme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 3:51am
if you dig around on utube you will find all sorts paintball to pellet conversions,paintball valve should put out plenty power for what you doing,and can be easily modified if needed,not that hard to make a new valve either,plenty to keep you out the pub for a while eh!lol.
 cheers mike
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2020 at 11:47am
Originally posted by dvlnme dvlnme wrote:

that little project will keep you busy mate,good bit fun,
 cheers mike


Yeah its a bit of fun. problem is I have to get it all functioning good to go, before I can see if it has enough power to be useful!
J S Airguns
Air Arms TX200('s)
Theoben Sirocco
HW77
FWB 300s
Webley Patriot
One or two others...

Current projects:
Too many..
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