is it the seals

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   You're right, the springer makes the air very hot, but it does not have much time to transfer the heat anywhere, so the pressure peak acting on the pellet is very high, but as the pellet moves down the barrel the air expands and cools again. For a single stroke pneumatic, the heat is lost, that means part of your pumping energy is lost. So when you pull the trigger on a SSP the air is expanding and getting cold and decreasing in pressure more quickly.

Edited by xyon - 26 Aug 2022 at 1:59pm

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xyon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2016 Location: Canterbury Status: Offline Posts: 135	Post Options Post Reply Quote xyon Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 1:58pm
	You're right, the springer makes the air very hot, but it does not have much time to transfer the heat anywhere, so the pressure peak acting on the pellet is very high, but as the pellet moves down the barrel the air expands and cools again. For a single stroke pneumatic, the heat is lost, that means part of your pumping energy is lost. So when you pull the trigger on a SSP the air is expanding and getting cold and decreasing in pressure more quickly. Edited by xyon - 26 Aug 2022 at 1:59pm
	--- My favourites springer - Diana 52 PCP - FX Wildcat III

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 11:46am
	From what I've managed to piece together from the Web the compressing air to chamber is sweet, it's a simple formula. I'll do some calculations later probly from hw97@45cc and Diana 350@70.8cc. The real energy sapper seams to be the heat produced between the piston and reciever and the port. They reach really high heats, 700+ this expands the air, converts energy to heat, (tighter the port more the heat) when that cools in the chamber, its of a lesser volume. Actual lose still to be found out. I'll post a link to a boyles law calculator for anyone interested http://www.endmemo.com/chem/boyle.php Edited by kruzaroad - 26 Aug 2022 at 11:50am

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 9:19am
	I thought that's what we were talking about. A single shot. I be keen to know why a high pressure chamber storing the equivalent amount of air as the piston chamber ( more actually as there's the air in the chamber before compression) would produce less power than a piston alone. But I guess pump action take more than I stroke. Still larger piston chamber to smaller the pressure chamber higher the pressure. Don't worry about stifling my creativity, I'm just throwing ideas out. Just a mind exercise. I'll look further into air compression facts see what I'm dealing with.

xyon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 Dec 2016 Location: Canterbury Status: Offline Posts: 135	Post Options Post Reply Quote xyon Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 6:28am
	Don't want kill your creativity 😜 But there are a couple of reasons why the valved springer would not work well. If you store the air at the end of the piston stroke. Then you do have a single stroke pneumatic, which we all know is quite a bit less powerful than a spring rifle. Why is that? Can you guys tell me 😁 The pellets in a spring rifle acts as a kind of valve. The pellet holds in the breech until the pressure is high enough to force it into the barrel. The volume of the transfer port on a springer must be as small as possible for high efficiency. If you go adding valves and crap between the piston and the pellet, the efficiency and power will suffer.
	--- My favourites springer - Diana 52 PCP - FX Wildcat III

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 2:44am
	Theory would have it that if your piston has enough force to load the pressure chamber through the port, it's probly going to be strong enough to seal the chamber and no none return valve needed.

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Aug 2022 at 2:27am
	Or flip the piston release mechanism upside down, extend the connecting rod, turn release lever into second trigger. Side lever to reduce bulk underneath. Cocking lever should be release lever sorry. Edited by kruzaroad - 26 Aug 2022 at 2:31am

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 12:26pm
	That's cool, gamo dude is going to see if they have any barrels ( they don't bring over spares) I've said any barrel that fits and is in good condition is fine. Doesn't have to have the suppressor fluting plastic surround. Here's hoping

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 11:07am
	I think to me the separate release of the piston is the only way to get rid of impact when shooting. I don't think that designing the release mechanism is outside the realm of ppl here. I don't think the initial piston firing is an issue for shooting as it can be done on way to shoulder after cocking. I don't see the mechanism adding to much height or weight. Or overly complicated. Would it be rated as a pcp as it has a precharged chamber? Edited by kruzaroad - 25 Aug 2022 at 12:19pm

kruzaroad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 Jul 2022 Location: Hastings 4 now Status: Offline Posts: 2284	Post Options Post Reply Quote kruzaroad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 10:50am
	true. Don't have second trigger for piston release. Have lever system. Basic concept below. I'm thinking thumb size push pad, Thin strong steel rod. Pressure is not an issue as its not a shot stroke. A spring for helping release pressre if too tight Feasable.???

Pauly5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Moderator Joined: 10 Mar 2013 Location: Titahi Bay Status: Offline Posts: 1411	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pauly5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 9:57am
	Yea, I have wondered how well that would work too. Same principle as a single stroke pneumatic in the way it stores air pressure. You would only need the one stroke to store more energy than an SSP can with one stroke, but with more weight in the gun. I guess you would have to have the piston firing backwards so the plenum and valve is at the breech end too.